Talk:The Caine Mutiny (film)

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Contents 1 Michael Caine 2 Vessel Class 3 Ferrers arm 4 Queeg 5 Verdict 6 Split article 7 USS Doyle 8 The Indifferent Children

[edit] Michael Caine

Why was the Michael Caine trivia removed?! 22:56, November 10, 2002 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mintguy (talk • contribs) .

Because it's already in the Michael Caine article, where it belongs. Wasted Time R 04:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vessel Class

It was a DMS, a destroyer mine sweeper, not a minesweeper. 22:54, March 6, 2005 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.74.77.102 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Ferrers arm

Hi; In the courtroom scene, Ferrer's wearing a cast. Silly question, did he actually have a busted wing?

• Don't know--but it's part of the plot that he had been injured. Greenwald was not a military lawyer--he was a civilian lawyer who joined the Navy and flew fighter planes (notice his green uniform in one scene)--he got the Caine case while recovering from injuries received in a crackup in his plane (in the book his hands had been burned).--Buckboard 09:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I left the bit from Moviemistakes.com in the text, but it seems trivial trivia. The whole thing depends on the length of the chain, not how tight a circle a DMS can turn. Follow me here: Wouk was aboard two DMS during the war; Wouk wrote the book about a DMS; Wouk wrote the scene wherein the Caine cuts its own tow-line. Somebody at MovieMistakes.com forget to tell him?--Buckboard 11:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queeg

Ok. I'm hoping maybe someone can straighten it out. Why, in the end, does Greenwald (and SINPAC) maintain that Queeg is NOT incompetent and that Maryk was not justified under 185?

1. Queeg on numerous occasions would blow his stack without cause. Example -- when he found out Keefer was writing a novel, he exploded. There was no justification for this -- the matter of a crewman's personal activities (baring violations of the law or regulations) are not under his jurisdiction.
2. The water crisis. When he ordered the men deprived of water, it seems to me Maryk would have been justified to act then. How can depriving the men of water be construed as an attempt to enforce discipline? The action endangered the lives of the crew and officers. Three days without water will result in death. In extreme heat as in the tropics, death could occur sooner. This would clearly constitute cruel and unusual punishment.
3. After the tow-line incident, it is clear that his superiors know -- or at least suspect -- him to be incompetent.
4. On his own, he showed himself to be a raving lunatic in the courtroom. This would show that the doctors who testified for the prosecution were probably told what to write in their reports. One doctor on the stand verbally admitted that Queeg was a sick man. This was omitted from his report -- and under the laws of perjury, an omission is as much a lie as a fabrication.
5. When Greenwald confronts Maryk and Keith afterward, he points out that if they had acted differently at a certain time, it would not have been necessary for him to have relieved Queeg during the storm. This makes no sense. What the man was in the past was irrelevant; the issue was what he was in the present. Maryk examined the Captain on the bridge -- he spoke to him, passed his hand in front of the Captain's face, snapped his fingers in front of his face, and got no reaction of any kind. The man was – only for the moment yes – catatonic. Queeg didn't even protest Maryk ‘s actions for 2 full minutes. Given the fact that he was clearly catatonic at the time, how could he NOT have been justified in taking command?

From all this -- including the crazy and outlandish statements Queeg made on the stand -- why is it the opinion of everyone that he is NOT incompetent?

For the record: in the book, Keith ultimately became Captain of the Cain. Maryk was given command of an LST. The Court-Martial convening authority disapproved the verdict (this goes against the principle that a trial verdict can not be impeached) and issued them both formal reprimands (brazenly proclaiming them guilty). -- Jason Palpatine 13:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Greenwald maintained that Queeg was a flawed but adequate commander who was undermined by subordinates who should have helped him, particularly Keefer. He only went after Queeg because Maryk ("the wrong man") was on trial. Greenwald gives a rather impassioned monologue about how the country owed a debt to professional servicemen like Queeg; a point that Wouk would explore more deeply in his Victor Henry novels. A very powerful scene, both in the movie and the book. -- Cranston Lamont 00:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I've read Greenwald's rather impassioned monologue -- more than once -- trying to understand what he was saying. His question to Maryk and Keith and their answer struck me as odd. Maryk said that it would not have been necessary for him to relieve Queeg if they had supported him when he deserted the other destroyers under fire -- i.e. helped him hide his cowardice. My answer in his place would be Yes. What happened was inevitable. What he was in the past -- no matter how distinguished his record -- is irrelevant. The only thing that counts is what he is now. -- Jason Palpatine 01:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verdict

Out of curiosity, can anyone explain to me what gave the Navy brass (whoever it was) the authority to revoke a verdict of a general court-martial? Our laws have always held that a verdict can not be impeached. --Jason Palpatine 22:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Technically, the court martial convening authority can "disapprove" of a verdict, and this disapproval can be "endorsed" (approved) up the chain of command. This is what happened in the Caine Mutiny. This disapproval has no bearing on the verdict -- it is not overturned -- but becomes part of the record. AllanJ 13:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

An important point is that in the book the officers were not charged with making a mutiny, but with conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline. Despite the disapproval of the verdict, Maryk and Keith managed to resume their Navy careers more or less unscathed, unlike Queeg who was given a desk job as the Navy recognised he was not fit to command a ship at sea, therefore confirming that the officers were justified in their actions. Keefer also eventually

gets command of a ship and proves himself a physical coward as well as a moral one. Nevertheless Keefer and Keith manage to restore a degree of friendship.

Exile 10:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split article

I'd recommend this article be split into The Caine Mutiny for the novel, and The Caine Mutiny (film) for the film. There are significant enough differences between the book and film - a lot could be said on a literary front about the book that has nothing to do with the film. It would also help with all the "Projects" and templates to separate movies from books. -- Stbalbach 16:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USS Doyle

Official US Navy history has the USS Doyle (DD-494) as the destroyer used in the movie the Caine Mutiny. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chaveza (talk • contribs).

This article says it was USS Thompson (DD-627), which is confirmed in that article. Do you have a source that says it was the Doyle? -- Stbalbach 16:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/t5/thompson-ii.htm says

Commencing on 8 June 1953, Thompson served as a Columbia Movie Studio "prop" during the filming of the Herman Wouk novel, The Caine Mutiny. Operating out of San Francisco for one week, Thompson became Caine, while at the same time serving as the model for many of the Columbia sets used in the filming of the on board scenes.

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/d5/doyle.htm says

[Doyle] returned to the western Pacific between 2 February and 21 July 1953, visiting Midway, Guam, Kwajalein, and various ports in the Philippines, as well as serving as station ship at Hong Kong for 5 weeks.

Doyle arrived at Charleston, S.C., 7 September 1953 from Long Beach.

So I'm not seeing the "Official US Navy history" that says Doyle appeared in the movie. It's not impossible however; at least two other ships, USS Richard B. Anderson (DD-786) and USS Surfbird (AM-383), had cameos. Perhaps Doyle did as well. But without a source it shouldn't go into the article.

—wwoods 19:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Indifferent Children

Regarding this passage recently added and moved here:

There are some similarities between "The Caine Mutiny" and Louis Auchincloss's The Indifferent Children (1947). The plot of both books takes place in the unheroic backwaters of the WWII US Navy (Wouk's book in the Pacific Theatre, but the Caine's part in the fighting is marginal and the conflict is entirely among its crew, rather than with the Japanese - while Auchincloss' book is set in the Carribean, far from any fighting front); both books have as the main protagonist the scion of a rich family, who becomes a naval officer without seeking a heroic or combatant role, and who undergoes a fast character development in the course of the story; and in both books there is a central role to a court martial in which the defence lawyer brillantly saves his client from a seemingly hopeless situation - only to afterwards turn on the client and tell him what a heel he truly is. There is, however, no direct evidence of Wouk being influenced by the earlier book.

I'm concerned about WP:NOR - if we can cite someone on this, it would be interesting to add - but I'm concerned there is an unspoken hint at plagiarism. Given how popular CM was, someone must have noted the similarities. -- Stbalbach 14:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Searched google, google books and Amazon's A9 on a combination of "caine mutiny" + "indifferent children", as well as "wouk auchincloss" and couldn't find anything. -- Stbalbach 15:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)