Talk:The Beatles' influence on popular culture

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Contents 1 List of bands 2 Neutrality? 3 Schumann or Schuman? 4 I think this should be moved. 5 Eleanor Rigby 6 Charles Manson 7 Neutralising Tone 8 Ringo's Stick Grip 9 This article underestimates the influence of The Beatles 10 No mention of the Grey Album? 11 New/The Same Article created 12 Bent 13 Miles 14 Influence 15 This article is a complete mess 16 Move trivia to here? 17 Merge 18 Self-publicity 19 Gorillaz? 20 Jet 21 Jimi and Sgt Peppers 22 Zoot 23 Youtube links + Clean-up

[edit] List of bands

I don't understand the list of bands in the second paragraph. Wasn't just about every rock band since 1963 influenced by the Beatles? If so, why even bother writing a list? It seems completely arbitrary to me.

I'd say it's just some examples of the most prominent names...you make a point, but it would be a little bit broad to phrase it as you have, so I guess the original author decided to give some examples to illustrate the wide variety of artists influenced by the Beatles. --Lora 00:20, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the list is completely arbitrary and really serves no purpose. I totally agree that every band since '63 has been influenced by the Beatles. That list definately needs to be removed. --MKultra

I took it off because it looked ridiculous. 3 out of 4 people who commented on it think it's unnecessary clutter, so it seemed like a good idea. Plus it made my very worthy segment fit in a little better :D --WAM

[edit] Neutrality?

"Paul McCartney was not only cute and loveable, he was also a very melodic bassist and listeners learned to listen more carefully because of it.".

[edit] Schumann or Schuman?

I'm wikifying a few references in this article, but does Schuman in the "Composition and Recording" section refer to Robert Schumann or William Schuman? --Lora 00:20, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) I don't remember the Schumann reference. The Schubert reference came from William Mann the Times critic in 1963 referring to the pandiatonic clusters of "That Boy" http://www.terramedia.co.uk/quotations/Quotes_M.htm So Sgt Pepper did not inspire these comparisons [Fred Garnett]

[edit] I think this should be moved.

I think this should be moved to "The Beatels' Influence on Popular Culture." "The Beatles' Influence" sounds terribly incomplete.

Lockeownzj00 20:38, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eleanor Rigby

Wasn't it a string quartet that backed up Eleanor Rigby, not an octet?

I'm pretty sure it was 2 to a part, thus an octet. Sometimes, one of the pair plays a solo line and you can still hear the other performer on that same instrument playing background. - MA

Eleanor Rigby was an octet. - leo

[edit] Charles Manson

should there be any information about The Beatles' influence on the murders of Charles Manson in this article?

Yes there should. Charles Manson was heavily influenced by the Beatles and John Lennon. In the version of Revolution found on disc 2 of the white album, the lyrics are "[...]don't you know the you can count me out...in!". Charles Manson saw the included 'in' as a hidden message. Honestly, i'm not so sure of all the details, but i'll try to find them.

This should be in The Beatles Trivia. It deals with the effect of The Beatles on other people, but who were not directly linked to them. andreasegde 18:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutralising Tone

I have added, from the fifth down, paragraphs in the introduction, which serve the purpose of neutralising the tone of the article. I felt the whole thing was too one-sided and seemed to state as facts opinions which are the subject of debate.

Also I finally removed that totally redundant list of random band names, which someone had to do sooner or later.

Hopefully my actions won't come as too controversial - if you feel very strongly perhaps that the introduction is too long now, you may want to think about moving my newly added portion to somewhere under a seperate heading (perhaps entitled something like "Differing Views on the Influence of The Beatles".)

You could of course just revert and get rid of it altogether, but please try to at least include something in the article that makes it clear that the specific magnitude of The Beatles' influence is a very subjective matter. And don't forget to keep that silly list of band names out! --WAM

[edit] Ringo's Stick Grip

I have doubts about Ringo's role in the popularization of matched grip drumming. Certainly he was a highly visible matched grip drummer, but I don't think it's true that he was the first or the most influential. It was more of a combined effect with the visibility of several such drummers of the time.

I would also challenge the claim that Ludwig Drums became the standard rock instrument. Ringo originally played Premier, an English brand. Slingerland was another Chicago area manufacturer that competed heavily and successfully with Ludwig. Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones played Gretsch drums. Though very popular in the 60's and early 70's, Ludwig is only one of numerous drums used by rock musicians today. - MA

I got the info about Ringo's stick grip and drum brand from here [1] -Surachit 02:46, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This article underestimates the influence of The Beatles

There is so much more that could be written about the influence of The Beatles that is not included here, but I feel I should be cautious in editing. One thing I would like to add is that The Beatles popularized the 4-man rock band, a format they borrowed from Buddy Holly and The Crickets. The main difference in The Beatles' band and Buddy Holly's band, is that Buddy Holly's bassist played a stand-up bass. While Decca records may have told The Beatles that "Guitar Rock was Pass.", The Beatles re-invented guitar rock at a time when Rock and Roll had been tamed by the likes of bands and performers such as The Four Tops, Frankie Avaolon, and Chubby Checker. For all intents and purposes Rock and Roll had sort of died by the early 1960's due to several factors including but not limited to Jerry Lee Lewis marriage to his thirteen year old cousin, Chuck Berry's violation of the Mann Act, Elvis' induction into the Army, and Buddy Holly's untimely death in 1959. With it's primary performers out of the way, the music industry clamored to tame Rock and Roll to pacify conservative parents and religious leaders. The music that was being called 'Rock and Roll' after 1959 was softer, lacked guitars, and was full of pretty boys tailored especially for Rock and Rolls new image. This is one reason why Capitol Records in the United States continually turned down Parlophone's attempts to get The Beatles music released in The U.S., but eventually could not deny the "mania" that The Beatles were generating in Europe. I could write an whole other article, from an optismistic point of view, but fear POV would contaminate it. I feel the current article is slanted and is written from a pessimistic POV and does not include 1/16 of The Beatles' actual contribution. How could an article be written about The Beatles and mention nowhere the influence of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, an album that literally changed music, fashion, culture, and the recording industry forever. If someone who is more skilled than I would be interested in a colaboration at writing a more favorable article, please let me know. Mirlin 06:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

You seem entirely skilled enough to improve the article by yourself. Citing sources for your claims would certainly be a bonus. Algae 08:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Heh, that sounds like it came straight out of "The Compleat Beatles" (the best documentary on the band, as far as I'm concerned.)--190.37.176.12 23:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of the Grey Album?

In the last section, Beatallica is mentioned, but DJ Danger Mouse's more popular and more controversial mashup of Jay-Z and The Beatles is not. If Beatallica is relevant, surely the Grey Album is as well. 64.252.70.137 19:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New/The Same Article created

Here it is: The Beatles have had a very profound effect on music today. In the studio, the Beatles used many unique techniques and instruments for their recordings. They invented many effects used in music and have changed music forever. In 1964, the world heard the first use of intentional feedback from an electric guitar in a song. Before the Beatles, feedback was thought to be a nuisance. Since the release of “I Feel Fine,” countless other bands have used feedback in their songs. Although the Beatles were the first ones, Jimi Hendrix mastered the use of guitar feedback.

When the Rubber Soul album was released in 1965, the George Harrison played the sitar on “Norwegian Wood.” The Beatles would use the sitar in other songs in the future. “Rain” (1966) was a song that featured slowed down instruments and vocals, but also contained their first use of backwards vocals.

With the release of Revolver in 1966, the songs were getting more and more unique. Paul McCartney’s “Eleanor Rigby” contained a string octet, which was very unusual for a “rock” song. “I’m Only Sleeping” contains backwards guitars. “Yellow Submarine” contained the use of sound effects. George Martin was very good at this sort of thing because of projects he had worked on before the Beatles. “Tomorrow Never Knows” is a very unique song of this album. It featured five tape loops that replayed sound effects. It also featured the first use of what George Martin coined “flanging.”

The most significant effect the Beatles had on music was the release of Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967). This album featured vari-speed vocals, sound effects, instruments, and studio effects never before used in rock music. These effects are still used today by bands and recording studios.

Use what you will, I just stumbled on it. Makemi 05:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

??? Stumbled on it where exactly? --kingboyk 06:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bent

This article - like many at Wiki unfortunately - suffers from a typical (and typically annoying) bent on the part of uneducated and unread US enthusiasts.

It needs to be pointed out until more people get it: the US perspective is not that of the entire planet. You in the US continually make the clumsy assumption that what you know of the planet is either 1) sufficient as no one else really counts anyway; or 2) an opinion held by everyone everywhere - without checking your sources and doing proper research.

(This comment was not signed by the user)

Uhhh, Fred (It is Fred, isn´t it?) That sounds a bit "over the top" to me. Take a deep breath and write it again... please.... andreasegde 00:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Geez, Fred, chill. Don't gripe, edit. If you think we're idiots, show us where and how.McTavidge 03:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miles

I took out the Miles Davis reference, because Miles was purely influential for a jazz audience. If we talk about influence, then we have to cover the broad spectrum of influence, and not just aural. andreasegde 12:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

"The Beatles influence" should be written from a global perspective, and not concentrate on a local effect. Otherwise this page would be massive, and too long, because it would deal with The Beatles influence on the "Vera, Chuck & Dave Band" in Alabama (or anywhere else in the world, for that matter.)

Nearly all of the article seems to be about what The Beatles did, and not their influence on the world. Why?

I have added ^{[citation needed]} quite a few times, because it definitely needs them. References, anyone? andreasegde 16:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is a complete mess

Horribly sloppy and extremely amaturish. Somebody should probably just delete it and start over from scratch.

[edit] Move trivia to here?

As it looks like The Beatles trivia is going to have its genitalia removed, a lot of the articles on it could be moved here. They reflect the influence of The Fabs on popular culture. Better look at it quick though, because the clock is ticking... andreasegde 18:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

No need; trivia is still there, although I wonder if anyone visits this page? Hello? Is anybody home? Hello? (Sound of deafening silence...) andreasegde 13:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I have merged a lot of stuff from Trivia to here, as it fits better. --andreasegde 17:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I know a lot of references need to be included, but it´s hard to track down bands that actually admit to copying The Beatles. --andreasegde 04:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "Scientific" belongs here as it's not "popular culture". --kingboyk 11:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

But it does show how their influence is now in outer space :) I took it out of trivia because it wasn´t really trivia that was really connected with The Beatles, but their influence on the blokes that look at stars all night. --andreasegde 17:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Aye, but those blokes like to think of themselves as higher brow than "popular culture", I'm sure :) --kingboyk 17:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? Ok, I´ll do it, but it means that "trivia" has a higher profile than "influence". --andreasegde 09:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Right. Conundrum, huh? Don't know the answer, sorry :) --kingboyk 13:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This means that I am now working on something that has a lower profile than Trivia. I can see it now... "andreasegde made a magnificent start in Wikipedia, and it all went downhill from there." I´m the unofficial admin for the Bargain bin --andreasegde 15:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"andreasegde made a mediocre start in Wikipedia, and it all went downhill from there"? :) I see your point, that the net result is science being trivia and popular culture having its own article... maybe this article should be renamed to accept scientists too? I'd suggest asking for advice on the Project talk page. --kingboyk 15:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I was joking about the "downhill" thing. I often make fun of myself... --andreasegde 05:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-publicity

I have taken Richard Cummins out because it was self-publicity. It was also in the wrong place, and badly edited. (I worked on it before I realised that it was self-publicity.) --andreasegde 11:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This new article is horrible. It's a mess. I'm sorry. And I definitley think the pop culture and Beatlesque articles are completely different.

1. Pop Culture Influences - The Beatles effect on today's modern culture. 2. Beatlesque - Band that sound like the Beatles.

I'm sorry but this article just doesn't work as one. Sam 04:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Take it up with the powers that be, because Beatlesque was voted "Merge". You can´t please all of the people all of the time.

BTW, being Beatlesque is a reflection of the influence of The Beatles on pop artists, who copied them. --andreasegde 03:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gorillaz?

The gorillaz connection to The Beatles is merely superficial and I do not think they really belong in the article, especially with no citations made. The0208 23:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jet

They did a remake of Look What You've Done and it was a Top 40 hit.. In fact I just heard it on the radio this morning.. I think it should be included in the covers section.

Put it in - whoever you are.... :) --andreasegde 19:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jimi and Sgt Peppers

I heard that John and George wanted to go back and rerecord Sgt Peppers the way that Hendrix played it, but I have no sources. cool little bit of trivia though. Zzz345zzZ 05:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoot

What about the band Zoot? I just listened to them and they sound Beatlesque. 67.188.172.165 06:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youtube links + Clean-up

Per WP:EL

Notice on linking to YouTube, Google Video, and other similar sites: There is no ban on linking to these sites as long as the links abide by these guidelines. From Wikipedia:Copyright: If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work.

I have taken down all youtube links that obviously link to copyrighted music videos.

Also, I have added clean-up tags to this article, which is too structured (i.e. too many headers but too little information). The Cover version section might need its own article, as it likely will get more more expanded in the future. The Beatlesque section (especially "Oasis") should get trimmed or partly moved over to / merged with the relevant musician articles. The way it is now, the article doesn't look inviting to be read. (Those are just suggestions though, if someone has the time to fix this.) -- Sgeureka 21:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to make this article somewhat better (it's a first step). I'll add some {{fact}}'s where appropriate so that someone can back them up. Putting up some images to illustrate sections is helping much already. I'll delete the major rewrite note at the top when I'm finished, but I'll probably leave the cleanup note there. -- Sgeureka 22:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You are a gentleman and a scholar, and I thank you. andreasegde 19:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The work is mostly done now. I have trimmed a lot.

• I have changed most sub-section headers from ===xyz=== to '''xyz''' so that they no longer show up in the table of contents.
• I deleted the Recording and Instruments sections from "The music" (now: "Music") (before the edit) as most of it was without source and was much better described under The Beatles' influence on music recording anyway. (I'm not going to put that up there for discussion there, although I said so in the edit summary.)
• I moved everything related to music into the "Music" section.
• I deleted information from less important but still not unimportant artists/tv shows/films and created several "Other" sub-sections instead where there's a wikilink to the appropriate wiki article, so that it looks less cluttered.
  • In the "Cover version" sub-section (before the edit])
  • In the TV section, only The Simpsons and Absolutely Fabulous deserved to have more detail (before this edit). The other occurrences work better as a mention in a list and link to the correct article.
  • I deleted all information for the film That Thing You Do! (before this edit) as the film's article already covers all the Beatles references.
  • I deleted several artists from the Beatlesque section (before this edit) because it was too much WP:OR. Those artists now just have a link to the artists' wikipage. Oasis is still unedited because I asked whether Oasis (band) would mind getting that part into their article. I'll change this section when we have found consensus.

– sgeureka ^t•c 18:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)