Talk:The Awareness Center

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[edit] Please discuss

Please discuss any proposed edits on this page before making them. Edit wars are best avoided. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 23:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Drive-by comment: the controversial comments being sourced to that letter need better sourcing; personal letters, blogs, forum posts, etc., aren't really considered to be reliable sources. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. usajewish.com is a blog, and explictly disallowed as a reliable source due to its self-published nature. --Sam Blanning(talk) 19:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry that I do not know protocol here. Even awareness center's own blog knows this was a genuine letter: jewishsurvivors.blogspot.com/2006/09/does-rabbis-saul-berman-joseph.html

USAJewish is published by Yuri Yanover, a journalist who must defend his work.

Agreed this letter is only on blogs, but see for yourself the "profiles" on the center web site. I will not say names here, as wikipedia should not slander the innocent by even mentioning names.

You see in many cases that their sources are: one blog. Yes a blog should not be used, and even more not to destroy a life. What I wrote about the awareness center, then, you see with your eyes:

The controversial element of The Awareness Center is its listing of unproven accusations of people among the convicted sex offenders. Many of the Awareness Center profiles are built upon unsubstantiated material from anonymous blogs. Its policies require that a teacher go through psychological testing in order to perhaps have a page removed. No page has ever been removed.

I am restoring this paragraph. EyalH 21:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the correct founding date 1999 or 2001? The entry says both things. David in DC 18:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I've deleted an external link to a screed by Yori Yanover against Ms. Polin. It contains unsourced allegations and a distinct POV. These two have waged cyber-war for ages.

I've left up the Rabbis' Letter on Ms. Polin's tactics. It is well sourced and, arguably a primary source document on her work and career. It's at least as critical as the Yanover piece, but contains none of the latter's flaws. David in DC 20:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I've taken back down the Rabbi's letter critical of the awareness center's tactic's. There is a factual dispute about whether these rabbi's still stand by that document. David in DC 16:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This is untrue, except per the Awareness Center itself. David, don't fall for a story. There is no indication nor reason to believe that the Rabbis removed their criticism of the Awareness Center and its methodology. The fact that later claims against Rabbi Gafni were proven true does not mean TAC did not pursue him and many other Rabbis with lies and slander. SunAlsoRises 22:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page is a mess

I can't figure out how to get the little external link arrow onto all of the links that are indeed external links. Also, there's some funky spacing and funky symbols in the top couple of paragraphs.

Substantively, I do not understand why the external link to the Rabbis' letter about the awareness center's tactics was deleted. I deleted the Yori Yanover blog piece, but thought the abbis' letter met WK standards. David in DC 18:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I tried to change the Vicki Polin link to an internal WK entry, but discovered that someone has entirely deleted the entire Victori Polin entry.

There's a lot of goofiness and vandalism happening here. It seems to be being done by folks with a pro-Awareness Center POV. David in DC 18:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing Attempts by David in DC [...]

There have been several attempts over the last several months to discredit The Awareness Center, which is an international organization dedicated to working with survivors of sex crimes in Jewish communities. One of the many cases addressed by The Awareness Center is that of Rabbi Mordechai Gafni who recently confessed to raping more women in Israel. You can read about this case at: http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/gafni_mordechai.html

David in DC keeps posting a pdf file of a letter written by several rabbis who have since admitted they made an error. All one needs to do is call Rabbi Yosef Blau who is the head spiritual advisor at Yeshiva University for clarification on this case. [...] Please note that the entry on Rabbi Blau on Wikipedia has also been attacked by those who are supporters of Gafni.

The Awareness Center and many others who advocated for survivors are asking that this site be locked so that David in DC and the other followers of a confessed sex offender can no longer harass this organization who's goal is to advocate for Jewish survivors of sex crimes.

I think it's also vitally important to mention that The Awareness Center has the support of over 250 rabbis from every movement of Judaism. If the letter provided by David in DC was accurate, then the organization would not have international support of rabbis.

For more information about The Awareness Center [...]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.85.3.158 (talk) 05:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

I am no Gafni Supporter. I am trying to bring the page into compliance with Wikipedia standards. Many of my changes, that are described as attacks, are simple typo corrections ie theWeb into the Web, and marking external links properly as external links. The letter from the rabbis opposing the Awareness Center's tactics is accurate. This page needs to be locked so more senior wikipedia editors can separate wheat from chaff. But believe me, I am no Gafni supporter. I've supported the Awareness Center and Vicki Polin in the past am am currently posting on Jewish blogs to bring Reb Shlomo Carlebach's history of predations into the mainstream. If you look at Carlebach's page on Wikipedia, you'll see that I've done so there, with help fending off a troll from a moderator. I need similar help here. Wikipedia needs an Awareness Center page that's accurate, and not a puff piece posted and defended by Awareness Center supporters. David in DC 15:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the title of this entry to take out a Libel against me David in DC 15:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clean-up work Jeandre David in DC 20:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The Awareness Center is trying to rewrite its history. TAC's version of this page removes the references to Rabbi Marc Dratch which were found in the very recent JTA article. TAC's one-sided presentation of itself as an accepted resource does not meet Wikipedia's requirement of a neutral POV. SunAlsoRises 22:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

David in DC you need to learn the history of the letter compiled by a few rabbis and a therapist who were supporters of Gafni. Various individuals warned Ms. Polin and various individuals associated with The Awareness Center if they did not resign they would expose them for what ever issue there was. At one point Rabbi Arthur Green called the advocates a "rodef", basically meaning he was calling for them to be murdered. This is quiet extreme, yet was the mind set of those taken in by a confessed serial sex offender. Advocate For Survivors 22:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Lock This Page

I am asking that this page be locked and that it be left to the edition created by Jeandré (see link below). I am also asking that the individual who is attempting to create havoc to stop. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Awareness_Center&oldid=108169788 Advocate For Survivors 22:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I seem to have stepped into a landmine-filled controversy. As I see it, there are two different versions of this WP entry, that by Jeandré and that by SunAlsoRises. I've spoken by telephone with Vicki and am convinced she is working, in good faith, with Jeandré, to have TAC portrayed in a light she sees as accurate.

I haven't spoken with SunAlsoRises, but am equally convinced of Sun's good faith. I think Sun's version hews closer to WP standards than Jeandré's, but I am a very new Wikipedian.

What's gotta stop is the hourly edits.

The page needs to be locked. Then the Sun version and the Jeandré version need to be judged by experienced Wikipedians with no dogs in this particular fight. I will edit this page no more. I hope Jeandré and Sun will also cease fire. NOW.

I think a final page will look more like Sun's than Jeandré's, but, as I say, I'm new to this.

MPerel was able to broker a good resolution when I tried to edit Shlomo Carlebach's WP entry and ran into similar problems. The entry for Carlebach now seems to abide by WP standards. And, blessedly, the revert war there is over.

This page needs a similar solution. David in DC 03:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

All one needs to do is a little research on the case of Marc Gafni to understand the mindset of Sun. Marc/Mordechai Gafni has a long track history of cult like practices. All one needs to do is call Rabbi Shlomo Riskin regarding his past. Read all the entries on Marc Gafni It will make sense that Jeandre's entry makes the most sense. Sun's intent is harassment. Advocate For Survivors 04:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not on TAC's or Sun's side - I'm just trying to make sure the article adheres to Wikipedia's rules - specifically verifiability, reliable sources, and neutrality. To request a page lock, see WP:RFPP. Do not complain if the wrong version is the locked tho. Instead of going that route I think we should adhere to the policies linked above and write an encyclopedic article. -- Jeandré, 2007-02-15t07:41z, 2007-02-15t07:49z, 2007-02-15t08:10z
Jeandre keeps deleting anything that portrays TAC in anything other than a wholly favorable light. But TAC is not universally viewed as good. A proper encyclopedia entry about TAC would include both sides. David in DC 17:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This solution looks very correct to me. Thanks to Jeandré and Gnangarra. Thanks for taking out the most controversial change, for cooler heads to consider. Thanks for "locking" the page with balance, not the puff piece. Thanks for leaving my non-partisan clean-up work alone. And, especially for not laughing at a dolt who makes grammar changes while consistently misspelling grammar. David in DC 16:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Gnangarra's lock has been undone by a BOT. I've reverted the page to its protected status. I'm a newby. Should a BOT be able to reverse an Administrator's protection of a disputed page? David in DC 02:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Page protection is applied for a time period in this case the period has expired if the problem again arises and protection is warranted then request at WP:RFPP again. Gnangarra 02:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation and guidance David in DC 02:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Regretably, my prediction has come true. Pro TAC drivers-by have again vandalized the page ruining the NPOV compromise that held during the protection period. David in DC 23:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
And again today. I put in a request for protection two days ago, but it was denied. I'll keep at this. David in DC 00:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Mark Dratch has nothing to do with this organization

Returned to the appropriate edition. Rabbi Mark Dratch has nothing to do with this organization. He was on the advisory board several years ago and created his own organization. If you have questions regarding this issue contact Rabbi Yosef Blau at YU. What is being posted in other editions is more or less about a group of a few individuals attempting to harass an organization that advocates for Jewish survivors of sexual abuse. Perhaps the solution to this is removing The Awareness Center from Wikipedia and also the entry for Mark Dratch and his organization JSAFE. [User:Stop The Insanity|Stop The Insanity] 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Dratch's reasons for disassociating himself from TAC have a lot to do with the institution. The more shrill the demands for one-sidedness become, the more obvious their intent becomes. David in DC 17:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"Perhaps the solution to this is removing The Awareness Center from Wikipedia and also the entry for Mark Dratch and his organization JSAFE."

This would be the ultimate in giving in to the "heckler's veto" It would be shameful. David in DC 18:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

David, it's obvious your a supporter of Mordechai Gafni. If you weren't you'd be dropping this already. If you read the documents on The Awareness Center site you will learn that the reason many of the board and advisory board members left was because they were being blackmailed. Many were warned if they didn't leave that some thing they would want kept private would be made public. Read the article on the site about bullying. NOT David in DC 18:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please review my work on the Shlomo Carlebach page, or, for that matter, my posts on Carlebach and on Lashon Hara on
my own blog. I believe in the work of exposing sexual abuse in the Jewish Community. But ultimately, if TAC insists on sanitizing the record of a balanced perspective IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA, it robs itself of desperately needed credibility. I am no supporter of Gafni and to say so is libel. TAC would benefit from a more nuanced response to things it doesn't like. Calling everyone who does anything TAC doesn't like the supporter of a monster like Gafni is the worst kind of McCarthyism. G-d help me from those I agree with. My opponents I can handle.
TAC's efforts to sanitize this page will fail. Calling allies perverts will rob TAC of any support it might otherwise garner.
I'm very disappointed about most of this. I'm very angry about accusations that I support Gafni. Shame on you. David in DC 01:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Please note that David in DC keeps posting information relating to Rabbi Mark Dratch's organization which has absolutely nothing to do with The Awareness Center. Read the article on the site about bullying. There are over 250 rabbis who support The Awareness Center. What purpose does David in DC have in posting information relating to one rabbi? NOT David in DC 02:03, 07 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.85.62.36 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-07t08:08:55z.
36, why are you removing referenced information in your reverts? -- Jeandré, 2007-03-07t20:45z
I just made several changes which didn't "take". I think I was uploading at the same time that David in DC was uploading. I am going redo the changes I made. For some reason they are not even in the history. Give me about 15 minutes and they will be back up [User:NOT David in DC|NOT David in DC] 02:41, 07 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2007-03-08t20:42:20z (talk • contribs) 72.85.62.36.

[edit] Harassment To The Awareness Center

There are a few individuals placing information on this site as an attempt to harass this organization. Rabbi Mark Dratch has absolutely nothing to do with the organization. It is also inappropriate to put a link to Rabbi Dratch's organization on The Awareness Center's site.

Rabbi Yosef Blau, religious adviser at Yeshiva University and an advocate for victims of rabbinic sexual abuse and misconduct, has stated that the The Awareness Center is very valuable "since you can't get people arrested and there are no court cases, you have to use a standard that's reasonable and disclosure works in that context". The center no longer names its board members due to harassment, according to an article put out by the Jewish Telegraph Agency, Vicki Polin said she herself has been threatened repeatedly with physical harm and was once spat on by a woman who was angry over a sex offender being placed on The Awareness Center site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2007-03-09t04:38:23z (talk • contribs) 71.248.91.237.

Rabbi Mark Dratch has a lot to do, and should be in the article, read the reference: [1]. I agree about the JSafe link and I've removed it from the external links section. The Blau quote is in the article. -- Jeandré, 2007-03-09t11:56z
Mark Dratch has absolutely nothing to do with the organization. He is chairman of the Rabbinical Council of America's Task Force on Rabbinic Improprieties. His attacks against The Awareness Center is very similar to the Catholic church's attempts to smear the voices of those who speak out against it. He's just part of the propaganda machine working for the RCA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.248.85.171 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-10t15:25:47z.
Please read the JTA/WJW article. If you want Dratch's criticism countered, you need to explain why the JTA/WJW article is wrong and supply a reliable source. -- Jeandré, 2007-03-10t18:51z

[edit] Semi-protected

I'm not certain what is happening on this page, but it looks to be another victim of edit-warring. Therefore the page is semi-protected. If the edit warring continues in spite of these issues, I will revert it back to its present version and full-protect it. If you are not able to make changes to this article, please discuss here and get a consensus. Bastiq▼e demandez 21:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of The Awareness Center

Who ever wrote the history regarding the organization is not correct. Below is the purpose of the organization. The primary goal has always been education.

Vicki Polin is the organization's Executive Director. In 2001, she founded the center to educate Jewish communities on the issues and ramification sexual violence plays in communities. It operates as a Rape Victim Advocacy Organization.

The organization was incorporated in the state of Maryland in 2003 and its international headquarters is in Baltimore, Maryland. [2]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.248.85.171 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-10t15:25:47z.

Please sign your talk page posts by adding 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end of the message.
The lead sentence already includes "educational organization" and currently includes "whose mission is to address sexual violence in Jewish communities." which is referenced to http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/mission.html which states ""Our dream is to create an international organization to address the issue and ramifications of sexual victimization to both adults and children in Jewish Communities"". The PDF you linked to (HTML cache) says "Dedicated to Addressing Sexual Violence in Jewish Communities Internationally" at the top left and doesn't include the words "primary goal". Please provide a source for the suggested change to the lead text.
What is your source for the change to your 2nd paragraph? Is the Meyer 2007 reference wrong?
The PDF does mention Maryland incorporation in 2003, and I've added it back into the history section. -- Jeandré, 2007-03-10t19:16z
Meyer's was making assumptions. If you read The Awareness Center's brochure you will learn that the goal of the organization is education and providing support to Jewish Survivors of Sex Crimes. For more information about this call Vicki Polin who is the founder/director and ask her directly. 443-857-5560. ---- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.248.85.171 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-11t05:02:01z.
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