Talk:The Amazing Race

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	To-do list for The Amazing Race:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Create inline citations properly cite sources Erase original research Decrease article size Review images Erase fancruft Get peer review Add references and cite sources

Archives Archive 1: 2004—January 2006 Archive 2: January 2006—December 2006

Contents 1 Amazing Race WikiProject 2 Peer Review 3 New Flag 4 "Business relationships" 5 Shortening the article 5.1 Whether or not the plan/plans are acceptable 5.1.1 Plan 1 5.1.1.1 Plan acceptable 5.1.1.2 Plan not acceptable 5.1.2 Plan 2 5.1.2.1 Plan acceptable 5.1.2.2 Plan not acceptable 5.1.3 Plan 3 5.1.3.1 Plan acceptable 5.1.3.2 Plan not acceptable 5.2 Comments on "Shortening the article" 5.3 Separate US version from the general series 5.3.1 Survey 5.3.1.1 Plan acceptable 5.3.1.2 Plan not acceptable 6 New templates and draft for changes 7 Season article spoilers? 8 Viewership for season in progress 9 Split completed 10 Merging Amazing Race infoboxes

[edit] Amazing Race WikiProject

Even though we're already under the television wikiproject, I'm wondering if there's validity to setting up a TAR wikiproject just to help with article consistency, even though it is pretty good right now - this at least gives us templates and the like for future races. Both Big Brother and American Idol have such projects, and I'm recommending that Survivor needs the same. I'll be happy to set up the project if desired. --Masem 17:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I once made a proposal for this at the Wikiproject proposals. However, I was headed off, as it's not really that big of a show to need a Wikiproject. Big Brother and American Idol have many seasons in many different country (I think BB has over 10). --TeckWiz^TalkContribs_@ 21:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review

I think it's time we get a peer review for this article. Are there any specific comments/contributions you think we should ask for in the review? --CrazyLegsKC 18:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a PR would be good, especially since we don't have a worthless trivia section anymore (now it's just on another page :) ). --TeckWiz^Talk Contribs_@ 18:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Just want to say an awesome job on the reference hunting, CrazyLegs, prepping this for a PR. In regards to a PR, the page length is going to be cited as an issue, I'm thinking that if we split the rules off into a separate page with a brief summary of the tasks, it would help a lot. --Masem 23:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

We actually had an article on the Amazing Race rules once, but it was unsourced and wasn't the type of page you were talking about (it wasn't meant to be a split of the main page). --TeckWiz^Talk Contribs_@ 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've mostly just been turning the URL references we already have into full citations (adding authors, etc)--although I did originally add some of them a while back. The page length might be an issue, but many Featured Articles I've seen have been longer than this one, so I say we just wait until after we have a PR to do any page-splitting that might be necessary. --CrazyLegsKC 00:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Flag

If you look at the glossary on the TAR 11 site, it shows a new design for the route markers. It may just be an example, or they may be a change in the look. --TeckWiz^Talk Contribs_@ 01:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough the page refers to it as a "yellow and red flag". - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 07:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

New? If that grey triangle at the bottom is supposed to be a cutout, then that's the Season 1 flag... Radagast 04:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Business relationships"

Someone edited the article to include a new section further discussing intra-team relationships. If I may say, that section sounds just a little POV, and that part that talks about the fact that their have been no professional relationships is not true: there have been "Air Traffic Controllers", "Beauty Queens", etc. --HansTAR 01:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shortening the article

According to the "Edit This Page" section that can be found just above the article's title, the article is 76 kilobytes long (although shorter than the article "United States of America" which is 115 kilobytes long). I have some recommendations about shortening the article:

• PLAN 1Create a new article about the "Rules and Penalties of The Amazing Race". If a majority of people agrees to give this plan a go-ahead, here is my suggestion to shorten the "Rules and penalties" sub-section in the article, The Amazing Race:

==Rules and penalties==

All teams must abide by the rules set at the beginning of the race. Failure to do so can result in time penalties, which can negatively affect finishing position in that leg of the race. While the complete set of official rules has not been released to the public, certain rules have been revealed during the various editions of the race.

See Rules and Penalties of The Amazing Race

• PLAN 2Create a new article about the "Production of The Amazing Race". If a majority of reople agrees to give this plan a go-ahead, here is my suggestion to shorten the "Production" sub-section in the article, The Amazing Race:

==Production==

The production of the Amazing Race is an extremely difficult aspect, given that unlike other reality TV shows, the show continues to move about the world all the time. Despite such difficulties, the show has been nominated and awarded several Emmys for Cinematography, Sound Editing and Mixing, and Picture Editing for a Nonfiction program since 2003.

See Production of The Amazing Race

• PLAN 3Create a new article about the "Clues of The Amazing Race". If a majority of people agrees to give this plan a go-ahead, here is my suggestion to shorten the "Clues" sub-sub-section in the article, The Amazing Race:

===Clues===

See Clue of The Amazing Race

With all these recommendations, I hope that the "Decrease article size" in the To-do list for The Amazing Race is achieved. You may decide whether the plan is acceptable or not and/or write your comments below. Aranho 11:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whether or not the plan/plans are acceptable

The votings will close on 25th April 2007 (UTC). Each user can only vote once.

[edit] Plan 1

[edit] Plan acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Plan not acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Plan 2

[edit] Plan acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Plan not acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Plan 3

[edit] Plan acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Plan not acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] Comments on "Shortening the article"

I think you'd want to do all 3 plans combined as a single article (which I've previously suggested above), 3 separate articles seems heavy. I don't know what to call it, it should be something "X of The Amazing Race". --Masem 13:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Masem, and shouldn't this close a little earlier than June 30? --TeckWiz ^ParlateContribs_@ 16:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that any of the proposed articles can stand on their own. And per TeckWiz, the poll should close much earlier than 4 months from now, and also if a clear consensus either way emerges. 1 month max should be sufficient. Tinlinkin 11:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

With your following suggestions, I have change the maybe future article's name and shorten the poling deadline to 25th Arpil 2007(UTC). Thanks for your first 3 comments. Aranho 12:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

As a name for a single combined article which covers Tasks/Clues, Rules, and Production, I think "Format of the Amazing Race" is a good title. There's still a paragraph on the main page that quickly summarizes the format of the race as to proceed a possible See Also tag. I think that if this is agreeable, we should push forward to make the change and get the page separated (and then into Peer Review). --Masem 17:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

For the best chance to create a split with the best chance of success, you should consider that the new article you create is encyclopedic enough so that it would withstand the Wikipedia article deletion "roadblock". I still feel that splitting the article this way will lead to the new article looking like fancruft and having content that is otherwise not notable for people who are not familiar with TAR. I don't want to stonewall any further action on achieving a manageable article size, so I'm suggesting an alternative proposal below. Tinlinkin 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate US version from the general series

One easy way to split the article is to create a separate page for the US series (to be named The Amazing Race (US TV series) per naming conventions). Now that it appears that TAR has been successfully franchised, this split would be the most sensible in my eyes. The main article will discuss the format of the series (everything that is proposed to be split above) and other generalizations of the TAR franchise. The US-based article will only talk about the US edition (obviously). With this option, the main article can reduce any bias toward the US series—although that is by far the best known of the international versions. I'm going to work on this tonight. Tinlinkin 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeez, the US version is so intertwined that when all is said and done, there will be a lot of redundancies and a need to look back at both pages for reference. I still think this is the way to go, but I'm having doubts on whether it can be done. Tinlinkin 07:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I gave up separating the US references when I got to "Pit Stops." Perhaps a US bias can be acceptable in this case until the Asian version and/or the non-US versions combined becomes closer in stature to the US one. The way my version has worked out, it is close to Aranho's suggestion, but in reverse (my main article would be about 54 kb, as would Aranho's "Format" article, still rather large). The other, much more painful way to trim the article is to identify what is unimportant and trivial and remove it. Some references to seasons may be better left in those seasons. Feel free to view and edit my sample articles: User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race and User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race US. Tinlinkin 09:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the separation is fine: rules & stuff across all versions and seasons, a US centric-page for the US series, and then international versions. The rules can be US-centric too, with notable exceptions for the international versions brought up in the int'l page (eg "The format of TAR Asia is the sames as the US version, except for the following changes:"). --Masem 15:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm convinced that the main page can have some US-centricity. But I hope you're not suggesting to have another page about TAR international versions (that should be OK to be on the main page). Tinlinkin 06:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No no, nothing of the sort. There should be a main TAR page (US centric), "Format of TAR" (mostly US centric), "TAR1" through "TAR11", and then at present, "TAR Asia 1" which includes not only the same information as a normal single TAR race page, but also the Asia rule differences (since the bulk of the race remains the same). If the Asia race gets several seasons, it may be worthwhile to make a Asia-centric page about it, but until it gets more under it's belt, there shouldn't be any general, non-season specific page for a non-US version.--Masem 11:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

To be clear, my main TAR page includes "format of TAR" (US centric mostly, existing sections "The Race", "Rules and Penalties", and "Production") and the int'l versions. The TAR US page is basically like my prototype. I may be able to move most of the "Production" section into the US page. The rest of the pages in the article series remains as they are. The only problem I have with a page named Format of the Amazing Race is its content. I can see how someone can interpret the existing content as crufty with all of its season-specific examples and statistics and trivia. As I said to Aranho, I don't want to see any hard work wasted, and I don't want to be blamed if an AfD succeeds of a split article. Tinlinkin 20:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Although I generally don't like to compose surveys on this small a scale—when comments should have sufficed—since Aranho started with this way, I will, too. If you need me to clarify anything about my plan (e.g. what's in the main article, what's in the US article), please ask. I intend to start implementing by next Wednesday, March 14, barring any serious objections. Tinlinkin 06:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plan acceptable

Say your decision here.

• After reading your proposal, I will support your plan cause I find your plan better than mind. I really like your User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race US as it is short and sweet, like The Amazing Race Asia. Each version of The Amazing Race (e.g. The Amazing Race Asia, The Amazing Race Central Europe & User:Aranho/The Amazing Race Singapore*) should have its own article as it will not only shorten the article, it will also make the article more understanding.

* This is ficitional reality game show and do not get confuse with other versions of The Amazing Race.

Aranho 10:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plan not acceptable

Say your decision here.

[edit] New templates and draft for changes

I composed a series of templates to replace the raw links for Amazing Race icons. Use of the templates should make editing articles easier. I am testing them in my userspace before I create them in main template space.

Preview template	Proposed name	Sample syntax (preview and proposed usgae)	Result
User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Flight	{{AR Flight}}	{{User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Flight}} {{AR Flight}}
User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Detour	{{AR Detour}}	{{User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Detour|Swamp This or Swamp That}} {{AR Detour|Swamp This or Swamp That}}
User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Roadblock	{{AR Roadblock}}	{{User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Roadblock|Who's ready to take command?}} {{AR Roadblock|Who's ready to take command?}}
User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Pit Stop	{{AR Pit Stop}}	{{User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race Pit Stop|9}} {{AR Pit Stop|9}}

I have also begun a draft for a change in the way Leg information is presented. See User:Tinlinkin/The Amazing Race. My reasons are to improve accessibility by reducing the reliance on rollovers for icon images; and also to improve readability by putting the descriptions of tasks next to the locations of the tasks as they are first presented in an article.

This is in no way a complete draft and I won't impose this change on any AR articles until there is consensus. I am welcome to any and all comments. Tinlinkin 11:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, there is the Fast Forward, of course. But the syntax for that is similar to the above. I do not plan to create a template for the Intersection yet as it has only been used in one season (maybe 2 by the end of this season). Tinlinkin 12:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think that these templates would violate Wikipedia policy. The clue icons are claimed under Fair Use, and part of Wikipedia's fair use policy is that copyrighted fair use images can be used only in article namespace, not template namespace. (See here, #9). I don't know if an "exception" could be made in this case since the image would constitute the whole template, but I would definitely check into it before making them to avoid any policy violation. --CrazyLegsKC 19:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Those images are under the fair use policy, and they can't be used in templates (unless exceptions are made, of course, but I don't think an exception for this case will gain consensus). I may be compelled enough to create similar images to denote the same thing (Detour, Roadblock, etc.), obviously not direct copies from the TAR production, and I would post them to Commons. Probably just the symbol for each clue and the colored rectangular background. Would that be acceptable or would that be copyright infringement? Tinlinkin 20:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

So long as the major distinguishing marks (the exact rounding of the corners, the 'tilt' on the images, the typeface) are no longer present, I think you sould be OK. IANAL, mind. Radagast 22:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Season article spoilers?

I would like to suggest the possibility that, while comparissons to previous seasons might be appropriate for season articles, future season info might be seen as spoilers and perhaps should be removed.

For example, From Season 6: Kris & Jon tie up with Kelly & Jon (Season 4) in reaching the highest position (2nd) without using the Fast Forward or Yield (the Bransen Family of Season 8 would later accomplish this feat as well). Also, unlike Jon & Kelly, they never came in last in any pre-determined non-elimination leg (Kelly & Jon came in last twice, the Bransen Family, once).

With seasons airing on GSN or elsewherein order, it is conceivable that people would start watching the series in order. And though there is a spoiler warning, they might want to read about a season once they've watched the whole season without reading about all the future seasons they have yet to watch. TheHYPO 09:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Would examples of specific seasons in this main aritle also be counted as spoilers in this way? I'm all for reducing or eliminating unintended spoilers. Tinlinkin 13:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I would agree here too, though there's sometimes you have to point out a specific case. I'm thinking that a good compromise would be, when a specific case has to be pointed out, to use a reference, so that those interested can follow it, but it keeps the spoiler information low. --Masem 13:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Viewership for season in progress

I strongly recommend keeping the viewership numbers for the present season off the table. Official numbers will be released at the end of the season, so any numbers published between now and then are going to be questionable and debatable, even if verified by an article. (I added an HTML comment in line to hopefully keep it out of there until we have the official numbers.) --Masem 03:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Copied to Talk:The Amazing Race (US TV series). Tinlinkin 10:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split completed

The split of this article into The Amazing Race (US TV series) has been finally completed. From where I stand, I'm satisfied with the content of both articles. But if there are any concerns about either one, I'm all ears. :) Tinlinkin 13:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Amazing Race infoboxes

I would like to merge Template:Infobox Television Amazing Race Asia into Template:Infobox Television Amazing Race and deprecate (delete) the Asia infobox. There is virtually no difference between the two, except for show title and images. I will merge them in the following days if there is no objection. Tinlinkin 05:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)