Talk:Text and rubrics of the Roman Canon

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[edit] Copyright notice

The original text is taken from the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia, which is now in the public domain. — MSchmahl 10:56, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supplices te rogamus

I reverted your edit because my Latin text of the Supplices te Rogamus is exactly as the Tridentine Missal, and is so attributed. Also my translation is preferable: 1)whoever heard of suppliantly? 2)shall is the correct future for 1st person sing. & plur. 3)in hac altaris participatione hac agrees with participatione. (User:MichaelaCollins)

I am sorry, but I feel I must revert back again.

The article is about the Roman Canon as it is now, not as it was from the time of Pope Pius V (1570) to that of Pope Clement VIII (1604), who made some changes in the Canon (see this section of the Tridentine Mass article), nor as it was from 1604 to 1962, when Pope John XXIII made another change, nor indeed as it was in any of the forms it had before 1570, especially before 400 (see Pre-Tridentine Mass).

The Council of Trent did not "define" the "Supplices te rogamus" prayer. It made no statement whatever about it. In its final session (3-4 December 1563), the Council entrusted to the Pope (who was Pius IV) the work on the Roman Missal (see an English translation of the text of the decree). It was the following Pope, Pius V, who actually revised, published and made obligatory the 1570 Missal.

"Supplices" is an adjective qualifying the understood subject of the verb "rogamus". The most natural way to English it is as an adverb modifying the verb.

I think almost anyone would consider "as many of us as" (like "some of us") to be of the third grammatical person,, not the first.

My correction yesterday of the text already took account of the fact that "hac" qualifies "participatione", and MichaelaCollins deserves thanks for noticing and drawing attention to the previous error. After the correction, the translation of "hac altaris participatione" read: "by this participation of the altar". I think "this partaking of the altar" would be better English, but I wanted to change no more than was necessary. By the way, "altaris participatione" is "partaking of the altar", not "partaking (of something else) at the altar".

I appreciate MichaelaCollins's very laudable interest in ensuring accuracy, and I hope this interest will continue to be shown in Wikipedia.

If Michaela wants to insist on a particular English translation of the "Supplices te rogamus" prayer, I will not resist (although I may possibly tweak it a little). But I must insist that the prayer itself (in Latin) be given in its official form, not in any one of the forms it had in the past, whether they were at that time fully official or not. Lima 19:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)