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Contents 1 "[TSKS-ryū] is the oldest extant martial art in Japan" and "[TSKS-ryū] is the source tradition of Japanese martial arts" 2 spelling 3 split school 4 Keitoo - lineage 5 Proper title? 6 Expanding? 7 Sugino situation again 8 Sugino situation - more information 9 Picture 10 fakes

[edit] "[TSKS-ryū] is the oldest extant martial art in Japan" and "[TSKS-ryū] is the source tradition of Japanese martial arts"

Those are big claims. Someone care to back that up?--Rustedshuriken 03:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in your mind, but realistically there is nothing 'big claim' about TSKSR currently being the oldest extant martial art in Japan - it is merely a statement of chronological order which would apply to any organisation at any moment in time. Someone has to be the oldest - that's it! No quality judgement, the organisation could be good, bad or indifferent. Biased sensitivy detected.--19:18, 19 May 2006 198.54.202.130

Saying it's true doesn't make it true. See WP:V.

I'll address the claims in reverse order. First, the claim "[TSKS-ryū] is the source tradition of Japanese martial arts" is simply wrong. There are many martial schools which followed TSKS-ryū that claim other origins, who claim independant development, or whose origins are at least unclear. Of the schools listed in wikipedia, Jikiden Eishin-ryu and Shinto Muso-ryu come to mind. Furthermore, the idea that martial discipline did not exist prior to TSKS-ryū is ridiculously arrogant, historically inaccurate, and many schools do claim lineages older than TSKS-ryū.

This leads into the other claim, that "[TSKS-ryū] is the oldest extant martial art in Japan." It's not obvious what the intended meaning here is, but I'll take it to mean "the oldest martial art with an unbroken line of soke," which seems reasonable, but is nevertheless dubious. Daito-ryu and Togakure Ryu, Kukishin Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu of the Bujinkan immediately come to mind as examples of schools which claim unbroken lineages going further back than TSKS-ryū.

I should mention here that the original phrasing was "[TSKS-ryū] is one of the oldest extant martial arts in Japan." It was some later editor that removed the words "one of"--if someone were to reinsert these words I would have no problem with the claim. The second claim however, that "[TSKS-ryū] is the source tradition of [all? -RS] Japanese martial arts" is absurd and should be removed. --Rustedshuriken 09:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Since it's been two and a half weeks since I first marked the claims in the article and no one has cited sources, I went ahead and made some minor (but meaningful) changes. I added the words "one of" to the first claim, to make it "[TSKS-ryū] is one of the oldest extant martial arts in Japan," and added the word "many" to the second, making it "[TSKS-ryū] is the source tradition of many Japanese martial arts." If these changes are unsatisfactory, please discuss it here. --Rustedshuriken 08:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spelling

Does anyone know the kanji for Iizasa Yoshisada? Most Internet sources name the current, 20th headmaster as Iizasa shuri-no-suke Yasusada. Also, has someone compiled a list of the various ISBN numbers (are there more than six?) of various versions of the Deity and the Sword book? (I plan to write more about this fascinating, cryptic book in the future but I currently do not own the whole set of three volumes.) jni 10:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've only ever seen or heard it as Yoshisada. How many volumes do you have? User:Peregrine 20:02, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Just received the last one of the three. The vol. 1 spells soke's name as Yasusada both in Romaji and in furigana. I'll put some kanjis in this article when I got time for it. jni 10:43, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The kanji for yasu I just put in this article is indeed commonly spelt as yoshi, but I cannot find either yasusada or yoshisada with this combination of kanjis in Jim Breen's ENAMDICT nor in any other dictionary I have. Therefore I have assumed that Deity and the Sword spells it correctly, unless other evidence surfaces. Maybe yasu is a reading specific to the family or something, I don't know. jni 14:18, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] split school

My point is not the ownership of the school but rather that a couple of comments I've heard from the soke have tended to indicate that he'd rather see a reconciliation than a casting out. Though that may also be matter of translating Japanese non-confrontationalism.

The situation with Sugino-ha and Sugawara-ha has been discussed repeatedly in various Internet forums. I don't think we should rehash this topic here. It is sufficient to mention in passing in the article text that there are people operating independent from the Iizasa family (like the article currently says), but I would leave it to that. Let the TSKSR decide on its policy in privacy. Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated in any way to any branch of TSKSR but I have been an avid observer of this koryu for a few years. Do you have any closer connection to the TSKSR than I? jni 10:43, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"I don't think we should rehash this topic here" Absolutely, just feel as currently written goes into this futher than is necessary, Am editing now to bring things more into line with your suggestion. Not much more connection then you, trained for some years with a student of Sugino Yukihiro sensei and shorter periods with a student of Otake sensei and one of Sugino Yoshio sensei. Will swing by later to check what you have to say. About the name, do you know when the current soke inherited the school, just making sure it isn't since '77 (when the books were published). Cheers

Would it be possible for someone with a little more knowledge about the Sugino situation to write something about it? Ilmarinen 16:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there exists a source about the current status with Sugino that satisfies the criterias spelled out in Wikipedia:Verifiability. Internet rumors say they are close to reconsiliation with the "official" TSKSR, even demonstrating together in major embu, but I haven't seen any sources reliable enough for Wikipedia's purposes about that. As of this writing, Relnick's site lists five persons that are eligible to represent the school in West, and I tend to believe this list reflects the current situation as the way Iizasa-sōke wants it for now. That is, everyone else, including the practitioners in Norway and Finland, are part of some schismatic group(s), not the real tradition. jni 09:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Keitoo - lineage

The three volumes do not give the date when he inherited the school, but I guess it happened about when 19th soke (Iizasa Kinjiro) died (another date I don't know). Published material in 2002 (Ellis Amdur: Old School and Skoss et.al. vol2, see koryu.com for detailed references about these books) also indicate the 20th soke is the current one, so there has not been a change between 1977 and 2002. It is unlikely that the status has changed after 2002: there would have been a discussion about it in e-budo.com or in Iaido-L. The lineage of headmasters is (according to the Otake's book, all with surname iizasa, numbers 7-20 with shuri-no-suke as a "middle-name"):
1. Choisai Ienao
2. Wakasa-no-kami Morichika
3. Wakasa-no-kami Morinobu
4. Yamashiro-no-kami Moritsuna
5. Saemon-no-jo Morihide
6. Oi-no-kami Morishige
7. Shuri-no-suke Morinobu
8. Morinaga
9. Morihisa
10. Morisada
11. Morishige
12. Moritsugu
13. Morikiyo
14. Nagateru
15. Moriteru
16. Morishige (Kanrokusai)
17. Morifusa
18. Morisada
19. Kinjiro
20. Yasusada
I try to wikify this better later jni 14:18, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Proper title?

The title of this entry should be "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu," with "Katori Shinto-ryu" redirecting to it.

Quite right, I came here to post the same thing.

You both are absolutely right, we should use the full title instead of abbreviating it. The members seem to prefer the full form, if Deity and the Sword is to be believed. I have now performed the move. My apologies for not fixing this earlier. jni 16:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder why one has chosen to write Shinto-ryu, as opposed to Shinto Ryu. --Kongoshin 07:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

That is mainly for consistency with articles about other koryu. It would be a very tedious task of changing them all and also futile since it is just a punctuation/romanization issue. Some ruy like Kashima-Shinryu have their own convention about proper romanization and we follow that when there is a clear preference by ruy members to use just one particular spelling. jni 09:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding?

I see alot of reference material posted in the article but very little overall text. I think this article can afford to expand. :) Fred26 07:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sugino situation again

An unverified statement about Sugino branch is yet again being repeatedly included in this article. I think it should be removed until the claim has been documented in reliable sources. Amdur (2002), Skoss (1999) and Phil Relnick's website (which is an official publication of the ryu according to Amdur & Skoss) make it clear they believe the Otake lineage to be the only authentic lineage. jni 06:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sugino situation - more information

Someone asked about a clarification of the Sugino situation - and I'll try to be of assistance. I entered this statement into the article. My purpose was to inform that Yuishinkan Sugino Dojo (Kawasaki, Japan) is not a rogue school teaching TSKSR without the recognition of the Soke. I know by my own experience (I went to see Soke in April) that the relationship between Soke and Yukihiro Sugino sensei and his students is very good. They meet regularly, and Sugino sensei visits Honbu with his students. I write this, because there are so many statements out there about the illegitimacy of Sugino sensei.

My clear understanding is that Sugino Dojo teaches with the blessing of Soke. The full names of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and Soke are always spoken before Sugino Dojo does a demonstration. Sometimes they do demonstrations alone, at other times Otake senseis students are demonstrating at the same time. Both under the name of Soke.

Yukihiro Sugino sensei is not trying to portray his teachings as a "Sugino-ha" - rather he is, in a very serious and dedicated way, transmitting the schools teachings as they were given to him by his father Yoshio Sugino sensei. Yoshio Sugino was a student of Ichizo Shiina sensei and three other sensei from Honbu. They, in turn, were the students of Kumajiro Yamaguchi shihan and the 18th Soke - Iizasa Shuri no Suke Morisada. I believe he would think of it as an insult to his late teachers were he to put his own name into the name of the school.

My teacher has the verbal blessing and permisson from Soke to teach in Norway. It wouldn't be proper for her to ask for a written permission - his word is enough. Soke is interested in and happy for the teaching going on in Norway. Kusano sensei has been practicing TSKSR for over 30 years. That's all I can tell you. Other groups must speak for themselves.

Quote:

"I don't think there exists a source about the current status with Sugino that satisfies the criterias spelled out in Wikipedia:Verifiability."

I think that the foreword to Yoshio Sugino sensei and Kikue Ito senseis book (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu Budo Kyohan 1941/1977) by the 19th soke is verifiable enough:

"...The social situation here no longer allows us to keep the secrets of the Katori Shinto Ryu doctrine within the school. Since the appearance, in the spring of 1935, of the association for the revival of martial arts in Japan, I feel guilty that I have allowed some of our founders' arts to die out, therefore, I have chosen, as a service to our nation, to show the general public, through the handling of the sword, certain parts of Shinto Ryu. At the right moment, Master Sugino suggested publishing, with Mr. ITO KIKOUE's assistance, the existing techniques in order to guide the youngest amongst us. I gave him my support and hence this book has come to see the light of day.

It contains the wealth of the author's experiences, conveys the essential spirit of the martial [art] and explains in detail the Omote Waza techniques. It may be used as a manual for beginners or for those wishing to perfect their knowledge. Being published, at this time when, attempts are being made to popularize the martial arts, I feel certain that this book will be of service to future society.

Lastely I must express my admiration for the authors and the efforts that they have made.

Signed at Katori, Mid-Autumn 1941.

IIZASA SHURI NO SUKE KINJIRO, 19th descendant of the founder."

12:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Kongoshin, thank you for your long and informative comment. Now, let me answer to various points you are making:

1. You are mostly referring to your own personal experiences and (inside) information you have learned from your fellow practitioners of Sugino TSKSR and (I'm guessing here) from various postings to Internet discussion forums and such. You have met Iizasa-sensei so you are in a lucky position of learning directly from him. However, while having such learning opportunities is no doubt very valuable for you personally, they still cannot be considered as verifiable, published sources, no matter how many Sugino adherents repeat the same story. Please read Wikipedia:No original research, which says: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say.
2. Your critique of term "Sugino-ha": I agree you here, using the -ha prefix can form an impression that Sugino has deliberately and formally cut his organization out of the ryu "trunk" (instead of the split being more like a historical accident). Since the term "Sugino-ha" cannot be found from any sources I have read I'm tempted to change it to "Sugino branch" or "Sugino's organization" or something that does not use potentially misleading Japanese terminology.
3. Eri Kusano's verbal blessing to teach TSKSR in Norway: Why is it then that Phil Relnick's website, which we know is a publication of the ryu, does not mention her? In fact we find this directly contradicting statement: in fact, no one is permitted to represent in any way, or teach the techniques of this ryū without a written Shidōsha (instructor) license from Ōtake Risuke Shihan. Note the word written. Also Amdur (2002) takes a very strong stance in defence of Relnick's position, and Amdur's book being a published source we cannot easily ignore it.
4. I'm familiar with this often cited passage from the preface of TSKSR Budo Kyohan book. The standard reply to this is the point that Japanese history professor Karl Friday makes in his essay The Whole Legitimacy Thing (originally posted to Iaido-L list, republished by koruy.com). Quote: Even permission to teach granted by a past headmaster or even by the current headmaster in the past doesn't necessarily legitimize current instruction; the right to teach the ryûha AS THE ryûha is only as good as the current headmaster agrees that it is (kind of the way that having once had a driver's license doesn't necessarily make you an authorized driver, unless it's kept properly renewed). If I remember correctly, G Cameron Hurst III also makes this point in one of his journal articles about origins of the ruy-ha system in medieval Japan (need to research this at some point). Also, Budo Kyohan, cannot tell us anything at all about the current situation since it was published over 60 years ago.

Answers:

1. I understand this, and this is what's causing the problems. I have moderated the statement in the article so that it only states the fact that Sugino sensei teaches TSKSR. I would suggest leaving out the original comment about his status being "unknown". --Kongoshin 12:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Very good. --Kongoshin 12:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Her verbal permission was not to her directly from Soke, not by Otake sensei. Also, Mr. Relnick does not list Erik Loew sensei, who actually has a teaching license from Otake sensei. Loews license is here: http://www.aikidojo.nl/uploads/images/470/holland_kenshinkai.JPG --Kongoshin 12:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
4. "Budo Kyohan" is the last verifiable source from the Soke which states that Sugino is legitimate. All subsequent publications that state otherwise are presenting second-hand information. -- 12:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

So the crux of the problem is that the claim marked by {{fact}}, of Iizasa-sensei supporting the Sugino groups cannot be found from independent, primary or secondary source materials. jni 08:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Therefore I've changed the statement, as it does not comply with the Wikipedia guidelines.

Maybe we could make this page a place for historical information, and not a place for "political" statements of either group.

One way could be to make sections about Otake sensei and Sugino senseis groups - with their history and linage. This way, the reader may judge for themselves. -- 12:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Your recent change is allright with me. Of course in future someone will change that paragraph to legitimatize his own teach-it-from-videos-sensei as a TSKSR instructor or advance some other extreme point of view, so this issue is really a constant headache. Thanks for the Loew information, it may be that Relnick's list is incomplete after all. As for readers judging for themselves, that is exactly how this debate should be presented. As WP:NOR says: In some cases, there may be controversy or debate over what constitutes a legitimate or reputable authority or source. Where no agreement can be reached about this, the article should provide an account of the controversy and of the different authorities or sources. And after this has been achieved, best would be just ignore the rift in ryu completely and concentrate on expanding this article. I'll reply to your private message later this evening. jni 14:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Erik Louw sensei only switched to Otake style a few years ago (having trained with Yoshio Sugino sensei and Goro Hatakeyama sensei for many years). With him a number of his students with their respective dojos in nearby cities and neighbouring countries also made that same switch.

He only received a teaching license from Otake sensei fairly recently, which may explain the delayed update on Relnick's page (which now correctly lists him as an instructor). Being averse to politics, Louw sensei's emphasis has always been on training rather than on official recognition. But maybe a link to his dojo could be added to the external links section?

TSKSR in Holland: http://www.aikidojo.nl/ksr.html (English)

213.118.4.28 05:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

This article needs a few illustrating pictures. All the best ones I have seen in web come with restrictive copyright making them unuseable for Wikipedia. Anyone willing to share a few photos showing TSKSR practise? Ones with Otake-sensei or other senior members would be preferable but anything at all would be better than nothing. jni 15:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fakes

i think this article should also address the "false" schools that are found in the US. i believe it is a very controversial topic in the american kenjutsu comunity