Talk:Teaching English as a foreign language

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[edit] POV & Korea

I've added the pov to this page. I particularly find the comments about South Korea don't sound very neutral. There is some good, interesting information in this article, but please check its neutrality. Gareth Hughes 16:23, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ive added some stuff to south korea which will hopefully remove th need for a pov (which i shall attempt to delete)

Seems to me the point of view is purely those who are teaching short term courses. That's not all of TEFL! It reminds me of those week-long computer courses, people think they can become well paid computer programmers in one week worth of training. I went to an immersion-study program for Spanish in Guatemala. If you've never been you'd be surprised what an industry it is down there. There are literally HUNDREDS of schools, and they all want your money. They're selling you the opportunity to learn by hanging out with native speakers. Some of them use some pretty shady techniques, like having seemingly unconnected people hang out with you and act like they understand everything you say so that you feel like you're getting the hang of it. It's pretty lame. But there are good schools, too, and good people. I think TEFL is similar. Any time there is a lot of money to be made, people will try to make it, and the industry gets crowded with a lot of bad eggs. I think this article is crowded with the bad experiences of a relative few, if we have to have a section on how bad South Korea is, it would be nice to balance it with other countries. Tristanreid 15:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

"The terms (TESL and TEFL) are mutually exclusive."

IN theory they are, but in practice they are often used interchangably. There is a vast amount of overlap between the two terms and they have far more in common than there are differences. Davidreid 03:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and have tried to clarify here and at related pages such as English as an additional language. Constructive comments very welcome! BrainyBabe 19:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

TEFL and TESL are often used interchangably because TEFL is the British term whereas TESL is more an American term. However, in the UK TESL means teaching English to immigrants. So they aren't quite the same.GordyB 14:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link spam

I don't get it ... why are certain for-profit companies given free advertising prominently on this page ? Isn't there some kind of rule against this ? I'm a teacher in Korea at the moment and have been for almost 3 years. Many of the sites that you point to are large for-profit corporations that have absolutely no independent monitoring.

Why does eslcafe get so many mentions when the owner of that site rakes in millions of dollars on the back of the teachers who contribute and give advice on his forums ? ... while the owners do absolutely nothing to help the industry in general. Eslcafe.com is a site which frequently erases helpful posts from teachers because the admin doesn't like their content. Also users are often banned for just expressing verifible truths that are well-known in the industry.

This whole page is questionable. Why is wikipedia endorsing these 'reputable' companies ? Does wikipedia give out free advertising and endorsements ? Who has taken it upon themselves to vouch for these for-profit companies ?

Only websites that are non-profit and don't bring in $$$$ from job ads or advertising or TEFL courses should be mentioned in the body of the text here. Like every other wikipedia page I've seen, any other links should be ranked at the bottom so as not to appear like full endorsements.

I've removed most of the link cruft. The article should probably be on someone's watch list if it isn't already. I can assure you that a couple of those urls will not be back, however. - Amgine 20:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the huge amount of link spam as well. I disagree with some of the links being pulled out from the external links though. For instance, one site that is operated as a non-profit for teachers to report their teaching experiences was pulled. It is called TeflWatch. I put it back in since presents another side of the TEFL Industry. The article does need some work done on improving the layout and the information given. --Che1959 10:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


I removed additional link spam on the page, this time from a free website for freelance teachers. The advertising blurb was in the text, maybe if it was just an external link it would be ok, but turning the text into an advertisement is not good. --Che1959 09:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition to this, the link to the Basic Global English website that I've added was deleted and I would like to know why it is considered link spam. Should I just add the link that leads directly to a Basic Global English article from an academic journal? --Sinatra 15:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spam

A lot of practical links have been removed for organisations in the field ave been removed...yet I am sure wiki will have an entrys for ford sony etc etc.

all of the practical job hunting advice was totally cut even regarding the British council! So I have reinstated it.

Also it seems crazy to me to not include links to commercial organisations. Yes the are money grubbing capitalist b****’s and yes they have exploited us terribly and yes they are the basic starting point for each prospective teacher . . .so I cant really see the point in not including the links to them…after all I have just spend two paragraphs saying what a bunch of con men they are! - ;) .however I have stuck links for them in the external section as recommended,

Just re reading through this article I cant help wondering if the links were removed by competitors. Certainly a lot of good advice has been cut.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.123.110.150 (talk • contribs).

Wikipedia is not supposed to give advice. Read WP:NOT.mgekelly 14:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey I'm just trying to contribute here...the gudide isnt exactly short or well indexed :)

WikiPedia's mission is to be an encyclopedia. WikiGogy's (wikigogy.org)'s mission is to help teachers of English as a foreign or second languages collaborate on lesson plans and best practice in our field. Encyclopedias are an essencial starting point in any topic of study. The middle and end must be elsewhere so that an encyclopedia can remain an effective starting point. --Roger Chrisman 00:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway have amended the entry taking advice above in mind

Have put back stuff about celta..its certainly essential in Europe if you want more than a traveling proffesion but mentioned others to keep it even

Put back British Council schools lists and lesson planing links.

Removed some advertisng from external links.

Please note the coucil is a governmental organisation, and a (not for profit) charity. It does have some langauge schools , but if the council has a school somewhere its usualy beause its so poor the place cant afford a for profit making school Yes it does organise the Cambridge exams world wide..but that is a govemental thing.. the organisation is a charity...ok-?

Dont understand why Dves els grey list is removed but its ok to add others . . . the idea that this guy is a milliobare just coz he got there first is . . .

Will aslo add links for CELTA and trinity as they are essential links for any one wanting to teach in europe- Could the person deleting them please note that although these insitutions make money they are not for profit eductaional insitutions are are the back bone of the efl establishment of the British English teaching world. Any one wanting to train needs to know about them. Removing them as SPAm is ......—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.123.110.150 (talk • contribs).

You've added some good stuff here, but a lot of it is not what you should expect to find in an encyclopedia. Warning potential teachers is important, but should be done off Wikipedia and linked from this article. The fact that this article is at presetn godawful does not mean that it's ok to put more crap on here, no offence. mgekelly 17:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guardian

And more crap is just exactly what the new edit looks like, well at least the external links do. I really think user should post in the talk page to explain the changes they make. So I am cleaning up the huge external links list and changing it back to a more manageable layout. Several sites that had remained for a long time unmolested have been deleted in favor of links to British newspaper articles. --Che1959 13:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

For the life of me i dont understand why the info on teaching was cut from the article so i put them all back. Whats wrong with the guardian...its is a major world newspaper....AND THE NEWSPAPER FOR EFL!

Why are they there... because they link to more info maybe? These links arn't easy to find with google. Anyone intrested in a particular market needs them.

Che1959 seemS more intrested in deleting and insulting than adding . . . . or reading the comments i put in explaining the changes....if my stuff is SO crap why not re write it yourself or why not write you own that is better? If you don't know anything about EFL and you dont actualy check what you cut..why are you here?

  • They were deleted because this is not a weblog. It is an online encyclopedia. A great idea would be for you to create a webpage with all of those links(I agree they are valuable links, just not valuable in an encyclopedia) and then make a link to the all of the articles. In fact, I have taken the liberty to copy down all of the links and in a day or two, if you haven't done the same, I will make up a webpage with the links and post an external link to it. By the way, I do know TEFL. I have been teaching TEFL for 9 years in Honduras, Mexico, Korea, Thailand and Japan. I know the market well. --Che1959 08:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

please do so ..but why cut before you do it?



I’ve taken the time to dig thru the FAQs and I believe this is what you refer to

"Wikipedia is not . . . . . Personal essays or Blogs that state your particular opinions about a topic. Wikipedia is supposed to compile human knowledge. It is not a vehicle to make personal opinions become part of human knowledge. “

How a list of links to articles relevant to TEFL across the world is not relevant here i simply do not understand. A blog is a medium for passing my day by day thoughts . . just because news blogs like Drudge list news articles does not make a list of articles a blog.

These links are very relevant for someone wishing to be informed about the profession

Clearly the article needs a little rephrasing in places to meet these criteria, however the constant wars over what should be allowed in the links and particularly the removal of the article links is as inappropriate as the abusive language in these discussion columns

Before you cut these again please explain exactly how this is not relevant to the issue.

[edit] Linking

REF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL

Over the last few months a lot of interesting links have been cut justified by phrases such a Blog or link spam

Having dug a bit further into the FAQs I believe the following should clear this up

Good

“Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article . . . in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.”

“Articles about any organization, person, or other entity should link to their official site, if they have one.”

“An article about a book, a musical score, a webcomic, a web site, or some other media, should link to the actual book, musical score, etc. if possible.”

Bad

“Web directories: When deemed appropriate by those contributing to an article on Wikipedia, a link to one web directory listing can be added, with preference to open directories.”

“A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked to. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns”

“Links that are added to promote a site, that primarily exist to sell products or services, with objectionable amounts of advertising, or that that require payment to view the relevant content. See External link spamming.”

“Blogs, social networking sites . . and forums should generally not be linked to. However, there are exceptions, such as in cases where the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or where the website is of a particularly high standard.”

Link Spamming

“A few parties now appear to have a spambot capable of spamming wikis from several different wiki engines, analogous to the submitter scripts for guestbooks and blogs. . . . Typically they insert external links. Like blog spam, their aim is to improve their search engine rankings, not to directly advertise their product”.

So links that are allowed include

Relevant articles that add content or cant to quoted for copy write reasons Relevant commercial institutions but not irrelevant commercial links spammed by a bot

Blogs home made directories etc

Sites primarily aimed at selling stuff… so you cant exclude Daves ESl coz it has some adds on it. Also schools and other institutions should be allowable, as should employment buros and publishers (as most of these offer other information other than jobs)

        • Great Point you make,
or so you think, but the fact is simple,

WHY are you so agressive ??

spamming 20 or 30 articles links into the wikipedia is plain stupidity. One link to it is ok, 15 links is spam, 28 links is criminal.

Criminal? This is wikipedia what is crimminal about it?

And what is is this adding a link to the private site's information on the CELTA, the official CELTA link is already present.

See below

Also, the formatting of the links you add is amatuerish.

See below

I don't know what your point is, but I will revert any changes you make in your attempt to vandalize the site.

See below

Can you tell me if it is possible to make up just 1 link to add for all of those guardian articles? See below _________

Do you understand the meaning of the word SPAM...it means advertising . . .this is not advertising...

still I agree that so many links is a pain...however there is no central guardian reference for these articles...EFL stuff crops up,,, and then a search is necessary...if you wish we can compromise on a general link to the guardian and the telegraph...but we cant find a link to a directory of articles. They Guardian is a newspaper not a blog.

If this so offended you why didn’t you look at the guardian and see if there was a central index? Why just cut cut cut...is it a power trip...? Why not try to be positive?

I have no interest in advertising anyone ..if I did I would spend time running my own profit making tefl site instead of having conflicts with you

A private blog is clearly not allowed and so we cant do that

If you had checked the CELTA web site you would see it has never fully listed institutions ..the link you cut lists every course presently running

As for companies...well I am not sure what is right to include here but does it make sense not to include recruitment companies? .. the rules do not forbid companies that make a profit.. only web sites with excessive advertising… these are relevant links

There is no mention in the rules of how many links are ok .. this is just your personal opinion

It also makes clear sense to include publishers...so why cut Macmillan books on teaching methods? They are a very important part of our TEFL infra structure..

Why are you so aggressive.? .. yes sometimes my stuff is not fully formatted ..but every time I come to spend a little time making it better you have been slashing away...sure the whole wiki idea is to spend time improving in a constructive tolerant and open minded way...is this how you are behaving? Are you saying all my stuff on Europe is wrong? Will you cut that now I admit to writing it?

So what compromise do you want to make? I contributed 60% of the material on this page so I want it to be good...im happy to argue a bit over its content but you seem to think you have absolute control over it.

What is my aim: to produce a useful informative site for someone new to the business that wants to start in the TEFL world... a quick stop to all the relevant info a place to give newbies the info to not make the wrong decisions

What’s you aim...? have you contributed any thing to this page...? why do you not change my stuff if it is so bad...? lots of other people edited my stuff and improved it ...have you done anything positive here? You have a wide range of South American experience could you perhaps add a little paragraph on the places you’ve worked or know about...? id be fascinated to know how things are there. I guess your from the US…the site is weak on training in the US….is there a US alternative to the CELTA…? I sure have seen a lot of adverts but I have no idea what’s ok out there. . . . Why not add something and why not agree on some compromises?

best regards

          • You are destroying this talk page, you are destroying the main page. What is your vested interest in posting those articles while eliminating ALL of other links? We can go on and on, just as soon as you change it, I will change it back. I agreed on compromise, basically one link to all of the article links, but you wouldn't have it. You don't get your way so you destroy. You basically eliminated my last post on the talk page. You will probably do it with this one. At this point, I consider you a wikivandal. --Che1959 23:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the link to the BOC Recruiting. While I am sure the company is a good company, allowing one recruiter to post a link opens things up to every recruiter. The other job links provide information. Ajarn.com is the largest TEFL site in Thailand and has hundred of job listings. Not mentioning it would be doing a disservice to any academic study of the TEFL profession. The same goes for ESLCafe, ESLBase and Teflwatch. --Che1959 13:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

He carm down che..appolgie if my repliy tyle wa out of order..please read what i aid before you fly off the handle

Che what are you talking about? All i did wa add a alink to the guardian. I didnt put any of the link in that upset you o deeply. There i no index page so i just linked to the 2 paper with tefl mayjor tefl content. I didnt add any recruitment I did what you said.Nothing more.

[edit] Sections removed

I removed the sections of this article which constituted a "how to" guide. Giving advice to readers is not part of Wikipedia's mission - it is a violation of our WP:NPOV policy. If someone wants to incorporate this advice into a Wikibooks module, they are welcome to do so. I also think this article needs to be more verifiable, with statements attributed to reliable sources. So I added the unreferenced tag. Rhobite 16:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding link for TEFL course provider

Island TEFL is a TEFL course provider on Koh Samui, Thailand, offering 4-week certified TEFL courses throughout the year. Volunteer placements, teaching in local Thai schools are also available.

Wish to add a link to our site: http://www.islandtefl.com

TEFL course providers have no place in the wiki, it is not a place to advertise, it is a place to give an overview of the different types of course but not to site individual providers of courses, nor is it a place to recruit or market your services

[edit] Thailand

I have removed the following from the article for two reasons:

1. It is out of proportion with all the other countries mentioned by a factor of 5-10.

2. Many of the problems stated are true of other countries as well -- arguably for MOST of the countries where most traveller-teachers choose to live and work (fake degrees, visa difficulties and the blind eye, poor package of benefits, tensions between native English speakers and often better trained local teachers, the culture of education). There is no point repeating it for each entry.

If someone wishes to re-write this ("In many countries such as XYZ...") then I would support much of the material being reintroduced into a more general section.

Officially, schools require a degree to work as a teacher, and in some areas to be eligible for a work permit, however in practice many teachers find that a CELTA or other TEFL certificate suffices on its own.
Fake degrees and TEFL certificates are openly available to buy on the Khao San Road in Bangkok, which has led to schools in Thailand employing a large number of fraudulent teachers. In many cases this is encouraged by the schools wishing to facilitate work permits for their teachers. The quality of the fakes is poor and so they are easily spotted. Common mistakes are spelling errors, wrong formatting (e.g. the certificate is landscape not portrait), and incorrect fonts.
Even those who do not want to follow this path often find themselves working illegally, though again labour laws are rarely enforced and many teachers can work illegally for years, by either working on an easily available non-immigrant visa, and in many cases on a 1-month tourist visa, which can be renewed simply by border-hopping every month. Many schools do not themselves know how to process an application for a Teachers Licence and Work Permit. There are occasional crackdowns however, and those caught can find themselves at best, looking for a new job and at worst, locked up in Thai jails until they can come up with the money to be deported, although this is very rare.
Schools generally do not pay for round-trip airfares or receive many other benefits aside from the given salaries. Local teachers wages are very low, at around 250 dollars per month, with native speaker salaries averaging between USD 500–1000 per month. While this can afford a fairly comfortable lifestyle in Thailand, it is amongst the lowest TEFL salaries internationally, and many long-term expatriates find they can no longer afford to return to the West.
The relatively high salaries in comparison to the local salary can lead to a certain resentment among local staff who feel that they are being usurped by less-qualified, and better-paid people, while the foreign teachers lack long-term motivation to remain in Thailand, therefore staff turnover can be very high in many schools.
The culture of education in Thai schools can often come as a shock to foreign teachers, with class sizes of 50-plus, unmotivated students who are forced to learn English due to Thai government policy, a shyness to question teachers, a culture of plagiarism, and an unwillingness to study anything that is not fun. Even at the better schools with dedicated English Programs, many teachers also find that they are forced to pass students who fail tests, and in some cases do not even attend class.

BrainyBabe 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This page is not a dumping ground

I invite all editors of good intentions to be especially vigilant in keeping this page clean and useful. I have just removed paragraphs inserted under Hong Kong, entirely out of keeping with the encyclopedic overview of the nature of the Wikpeida project. I suspect that they were pased by one of the individuals associated with the research they are drawing attention to. So that other editors can see what we are dealing with here, I paste it below.

[edit] Good Practices of English Teaching and Learning

The Government's Education and Manpower Bureau commissioned Hong Kong University to conduct a research entitled "A Study of Good Practices of Secondary Schools for Students' Enhancing English Proficiency" from 2003-04.

The Major Findings

This research found that successful schools for English teaching and learning are schools that 1. maximised resources and opportunites for students to engage in a meaningful use of language in both formal and informal curricula 2. included all stakeholders in the promotion of English learning 3. allowed enough flexibility in the curriculum to enable teachers to address the particular students' needs

The Consultancy Team

Prof. Amy.B.M.Tsui Dr.K.K.Tong Dr.Stephen Andrews Dr.Albert Wong Mr.Raymond Lam Mr.Gary Harfitt Ms. N.Tarvares Ms.M.Lo Ms.M.Ng Ms.Wendy Leung Ms.Cathy Cheung Mr.David Kwan Ms.Gloria Chung Mr.Hayes Hei Hang Tang Ms.Hofan Chau Mr. Joffee Lam Ms. S.Poon Mr.W.K.Lock Ms.W.Y.Wong

The Web Site http://good-practices.emb.hkedcity.net

BrainyBabe 16:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, a link on the wiki (I think it's in the Honk Kong section) goes to this. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.229.154.173 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Rationale for removal of excessive links, especially commercial ones

I am removing the excessive links that have grown up around this article. Please note the following Wikipedia policies:

What Wikipedia is not: Wikipedia:External links: Links normally to be avoided: "Links intended to promote a site, especially if that site's primary purpose is to advertise or sell products or services"

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not: Wikipedia is not a directory : "Wikipedia is not a resource for conducting business...It is not the Yellow Pages."

Also see Wikimedia essay (not policy, but indicative of user feeling): [[1]] "Although external links on content pages provide useful information, Wikimedia projects are not search engines or link repositories. They should be kept to a useful minimum, and provide relevant and non-trivial information that isn't present in the page."

Please help to keep this article encyclopedic in spirit. Wikipedia is not meant to be a how-to manual. BrainyBabe 09:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I have removed, with some reasons:

All of these are either promoting one organisation, or limited in area. If we allow one link to a website angled at those teaching in Taipei, why not one for every city in the world?

[edit] Training and Qualifications

I am not willing to argue for one training provider to be listed if other providers are excluded (though other editors may wish to do so). It is a simple matter to search for training providers on the web, and any potential teacher should do so. BrainyBabe 09:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your edits. Wikipedia is not a list for external links. -- Chris53516 (Talk) 14:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Dave's ESL Cafe is the biggest informational site for teachers on the net and provides a treasure trove of information. TEFLWatch provides in depth information for teachers on the seedier side of TEFL teaching. Both links are needed for anyone attempting to discover more about TEFL teaching. They are very international in nature. While Dave's is for profit, TEFLWatch is not. --Che1959 23:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We've removed these before and will remove them again. There's a reason for it. Please read Wikipedia:External links. – Chris53516 (Talk) 05:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Chris, you may have removed them again, but the tefl blacklist needs to be there. If you are familiar at ALL with the TEFL industry, you know that there needs to be a balancedview of the profession. Teacher need an outlet, arent you in favor of free speech? --Che1959 12:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

My two cents' worth: Dave's is so big (because he was in the right place at the right time) that it comes up in the top ten Google results for ESL. In that sense it doesn't much matter whether we include it or not -- we can add it because it is useful, or remove it because it is so easy to find. TEFL Watch is a greylist, and I can see that it is beneficial to include one such site to add a quick reference to other POVs. BrainyBabe 13:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatant advertising, no original research, unverifiable claims, lacks neutral point of view...

This article is a disguised advertisement for short certificate courses. Vague language "The basic qualification..." unverifiable claims "Typically..." and removal of links to sites that dispute the value of short certificate courses (TeachItaly.com) indicate this article should be deleted. - omadaf

Don't follow you, you believe the article should be deleted because it doesn't attack short certificate courses? Maybe you should add info in the article rather than asking for it to be deleted.. If I am not mistaken, an encyclopedia article should not be original research, but report on original research. Please clear it up. --Che1959 03:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I feel this page still needs quite a bit of work in various areas. Firstly, I think the comment about John Mark Carr having been 'aquitted' of Jon Benet Ramsay's murder should be changed or removed straight away. He was never tried for this offence, so can't have been acquitted.

I think the random section on methodology at the end should also be removed or included in a longer section on methodology. The comment that blended learning has been a subject of much discussion by TEFL teachers recently begs too many questions. What TEFL teachers? And couldn't the same be said for almost every other method of instruction? In any case, there are other sections concerned with methodology.

The sections on employment etc, I think, need to be expanded and organised into continents etc. And there should be sections on the different sectors within TEFL - one to one, business English etc.

In regard to training, I think more information can be given to the different routes into the profession and what the cert, dip and degree courses are typically like. Obviously, this is a bit of a contested area, but so are many others. I would have thought some description could be done without slipping into biased or self-interested opinions / recommendations.

There could also be a history of TEFL section, perhaps at the end. I'm happy to contribute / participate if / when I have time.


[edit] Removal of paragraph on Exploitation

I have removed the following new paragraph added by an anonymous editor. It repeatedly claims to speak for a majority, but offers no evidence or sources for that. Some of the points are no doubt valid for some teachers, but it would need to be rewritten and sourced if it is to fit into an encyclopedia. BrainyBabe 07:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus among repatriated EFL teachers points to the fact that younger teachers, particularly recent college graduates, will find that they are abused by their employers, either in the form of egregiously low pay, inconsistent hours, little or no respect, or ambiguous and misleading contracts. There are rarely exceptions to this, even if this is your chosen career path. If you are a recent college graduate looking to spend time abroad, ilearn a new language, and truly integrate into the culture, the general consensus is that this is not the way to do it -- even if you are working within a structured program. The large majority of English teachers are unsatisfied with their jobs, the only recompense being the novelty and allure of their chosen host country. This has said to lead to a feeling of suffocation within an ever-constricting Anglophone bubble amounting to greater depression and regret. Those content with their experience abroad have reported that enrolling at a local university, take language classes, travel, and teach English on the side in the form of private tutoring is a good alternative.
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