Talk:Taxila

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[edit] Taxila was never a place of Hindu learning

To say that taxila has been a place of Hindu learning is to mock history. I was born in the city and am well versed in the history of the city. I would request the contributor to substantiate their claim.


I would you request you to come up with any other name, ancient or modern, for "Taxila" other than the original Takshashila which is in Sanskrit, the language of Hindus, before trying to dismiss its Hindu heritage. Even Taxila is an anglicized version of Takshashila.
221.135.246.153 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


You may have been born and raised there but that doesn't make you an expert in ancient history of taxila. It is a well documented fact that Taxila was a place of learning well before buddhism was introduced during the reign of Asoka and the religion prevelant before that time was hinduism, tell history like it happened. Please do not pick the facts that you like and omit the ones that you don't. The famous sanskrit scholar Panini(much of the work in sanskrit grammar was done by him at Taxila. Kautilya(the mentor of Chandragupta Murya) wrote his Arthshastra while he was a teacher at Taxila and the list goes on. The fact that Taxila became a seat of Buddhist learning during the reign of Asoka and Kushanas is well known to historians the world over. Read the history before making ignorant and unsubstantiated claims.

Hindu word itself came after Arabic warriors came in India. The city and its culture was flourishing long before that so one can not relate the culture or city with Hinduism. In fact current Hindu belief is a lot deviated from the original Vedic culture.

Really???? the world Hindu(from Sindhu, it literally means the inhabitants of the land of Sindhu or Indus) created and used for centuries by the ancient persians, the immediate neighbors to the west(i.e Zorastrian Persia or modern Iran). It was they who passed on this name to the Arabs and the rest of the world, centuries before the Arab/Islamic conquests July 30, 2006

[edit] first university

“ (1) Extract from a letter of 22 October 1944, from Prof. F.W. Thomas, C.I.E., M.A., Ph.D., F.B.A.
I have never supposed that these 'Universities' were anything but organised groups of independent teachers, such as you describe, without common buildings or action....Real Universities, with colleges (sc. monasteries) and endowments were created by Buddhism. These, of course, Nālandā, Vikramaśīla, etc., were primarily religious and sectarian, and the students and teachers were monks or aspirants to monkhood. But that, as we know from Hiuen-tsang and I-tsing, did not preclude a keen interest in general studies, literary, scientific, and philosophic, including even subjects specially Brahmanic, such as the Veda. In numbers and fame and in splendid buildings and rich endowments these were, of course, great institutions, but they do not belong to the early centuries A.D. In Central Asia and China the Buddhists usually founded pairs of (real) colleges, one for religion and doctrine (dharma), the other for contemplative philosophy (dhyāna). These were about contemporaneous with Nālandā.
(2) From Education in Ancient India (1934) by Prof. Altekar, pp. 79–80.
In ancient India for several centuries the relations between the teacher and the student were direct, i.e. not through any institution. Buddhism had its own Sanghas or monasteries, which developed into education institutions in the course of a few centuries; but, as far as Hinduism is concerned, we do not so far find any regular education organisations or institutions till about the beginning of the ninth century A.D. For centuries Hindu teachers like Hindu Sanyāsins had no organised institutions. We come across several Jātaka stories about the students and teachers of Takshaśilā, but not a single episode even remotely suggests that the different 'world renowned' teachers living in that city belonged to a particular college or university of the modern type.
Marshall, John [1951] (1975). Taxila. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass.		 ”
“ It may be observed at the outset that Taxila did not possess any colleges or university in the modern sense of the term. It was simply a centre of education. It had many famous teachers to whom hundreds of students flocked for higher education from all parts of northern India. But these teachers were not members of any institutions like professors in a modern college, nor were they teaching any courses prescribed by any central body like a modern university. Every teacher, assisted by his advanced students, formed an institution by himself. He admitted as many students as he liked. He taught what his students were anxious to learn. Students terminated their courses according to their individual convenience. There were no degree examinations, and therefore no degrees or diplomas.
Altekar, Anant Sadashiv [1934] (1965). Education in Ancient India, Sixth Edition, Revised & Enlarged, Varanasi: Nand Kishore & Bros.		 ”

Cite cop is vandalizing the site, editing and deleting referenced material sep3, 2006
CiteCop is making damn well sure that sources cited verify the text in question.CiteCop 23:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The source cited in "Early Hindu" refrence is encyclopedia britannica which says that Kautilya was a "Hindu" statesman and a teacher at "taxila" so it was associated with brahminism and early hindu learning before, during and after the reign of Nandas(the dynasty that was defeated by chandragupta with the help of kautilya, who in turn was avenging the fact that he was exiled from Magadha by the Nandas, and spent most of that time at Taxila) All the stupas excavated at Taxila are from either during the later years of Ashoka's reign(two generations after chandragupta) or from a period after that, as is clear from the unesco refrence cited by you. The only religion prevelant before that was hinduism. Taxila was a centre of learning during that period as is clear fron the britannica and Ayurveda(charaka) refrences. We cannont call them Vedic because the late vedic period ended long before Kautilya and Panini lived. Scholars associated with Taxila lived after the 7th century B.C. If we are going to use contemporary terms like Buddhist to describe the Ashoka and Kushan periods, then we have to use Early Hindu(used by most historians to describe this period) for the period prior to that. Cite cop you should be banned for deleting refrenced material your own UNESCO refrence doesn't even use the term buddhist centre of learning but we are all smart enough to know that a stupa is a buddhist monument. Aparently Cite cop you don't know that Hindu statesman(kautilya), ayurvedic scholar(charaka) and sanskrit grammarian(panini) means they were Hindu gentlemen or brahmins to be precise. Or do you think they were all Buddhists???

So now the question is why did you delete those refrences and in addition to that you also deleted the words "Early Hindu"(since charaka, panini and kautilya etc. lived after the late vedic period and the epic age)???????? They pretty well expain that these gentlemen were "Hindu" statesmen or Brahmin scholars........i could cite hundereds of history books published during the last century with refrences that say exactly the same thing. I am not a Hindu nor do i have any association with Taxila but as a student of history the ignorance of people like you is really disturbing.

So Cite Cop, is this another attempt at vandalism or not??? Sept 4, 2006

UNESCO was my source. UNESCO said Buddhist so I said Buddhist.
The entry for Taxila in your online Britannica is strangely silent on the issue.
CiteCop 04:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heading

Why is the image at the top of the page cover the entire width of the page? This is fairly nonstandard. --Whiteknox 20:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sanskrit or Indianization?

Fouler&Fouler, what proof do you have that Sanskrit was used by the ancient people of Taxila? I will accept the script if you provide a non-Indian and unbiased neutral proof for its use by the ancient people of Taxila. (and also provide script for some language Pali or whatever the third language is) Szhaider 04:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, because you want to remove the relevant scripts, you should provide sources that it wasn't used by the people of Taxila. Anyways I have two sources per your request: World 66: Taxila and The South Asia: Taxila. This should clear everything up. Thanks, AnupamTalk 04:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Szhaider, The Sanskrit script at the top of the article is relevant. Sanskrit and Pali/Prakrit were both languages used in the region for 2000 years. See: Peoples and Languages of Pre-Islamic Indus Valley by Tariq Rahman. Here is the first few sentences from the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Taxila:

“ Sanskrit Takshashila ancient city of northwestern Pakistan, the ruins of which are about 22 miles (35 km) northwest of Rawalpindi. Its prosperity in ancient times resulted from its position at the junction of three great trade routes: one from eastern India described by a Greek writer, Megasthenes, as the “Royal Highway,” the second from western Asia, and the third from Kashmir and Central Asia. ”

In Sanskrit "shila" means rock; therefore, the name of the city means "(King) Taksha's rock." Furthermore, Taxila is mentioned in both the Sanskrit epics Ramayana and Mahabharata. Here is the Encyclopaedia Britannica article once again:

“ Taxila is known from references in Indian and Greco-Roman literary sources and from the accounts of two Chinese Buddhist pilgrims, Faxian and Xuanzang. Literally meaning “City of Cut-Stone” or “Rock of Taksha,” Takshashila (rendered by Greek writers as Taxila) was founded, according to the Indian epic Ramayana, by Bharata, younger brother of Rama, an incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu. The city was named for Bharata's son, Taksha, its first ruler. The great Indian epic Mahabharata was, according to tradition, first recited at Taxila at the great snake sacrifice of King Janamejaya, one of the heroes of the story. Buddhist literature, especially the Jataka, mentions it as the capital of the kingdom of Gandhara and as a great centre of learning. ”

So the inclusion of the Sanskrit script in entirely relevant. I am not someone who compulsively asks for Sanskrit scripts in Pakistan related articles. See the Talk:Harappa, where I ask for the Sanskrit to be removed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well said, Fouler&Fouler. Anupam, any information which cannot be proved true can be deleted. See WP:Verifiability. Counter-questioning is not a constructive behaviour and expresses POV-pushing tendency. Szhaider 05:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but your questioning was not in good faith as evinced by the header of this conversation: "Sanskrit or Indianization", especially when the article discusses Vedic civilization as sourced in the article. Oh by the way, thanks for providing the addition sources, Fowler&Fowler. With regards, AnupamTalk 05:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
It was in unbiased faith which might turn out be "not good" for some. Szhaider 05:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, okay. --AnupamTalk 05:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


The irony of ironies here is that people who now have a problem with sanskrit and ancient vedic religion and its connection to Taxila or Pakistan, are either unaware of or conveniently forget that the greatest Sanskrit grammarian a brahmin to ever have lived, Panini was born not far from today's Taxila in Attock district, and was a prominent personality associated with Taxila, a fact well acknowledged by every credible historian including Pakistani historians---Anon

[edit] Taxila was a center of learning, not a University

Why do people feel the need to add text that is plainly not true? Hartmut Scharfe's Education in Ancient India was cited as mentioning Taxila to be the world's oldest university. I read through the relevant pages of Scharfe's book. Nowhere does he call Taxila a university, let alone the world's oldest! He is very careful to only refer to it as a center of learning. Here is what he says:

“ The earliest reports about instructional institutions that we have refer to the city of Taxila, as the Greeks called it, corresponding to Sanskrit Taksasila (Panini IV 3 93) and Pali Takkasila in Gandhara that contained several monasteries (vihara), all, it seems, involved in teaching. The archaeological site is quite large; but no large lecture halls or dormitories have been discovered. By all indications instructions in these early schools and monasteries was conducted still in an individualistic fashion, not totally unlike the acarya-kula-system, or perhaps more like in an asrama. Independent teachers or individual monks taught single individuals or small groups of students, even if they were part of a larger monastic institution, and perhaps even supervised by the monastic community at large. It was probably another matter when the physician Jivaka Komarabhacca from Rajagaha (Rajagrha) is said to have received his medical training over seven years from his teacher at Takkasila, because there is no indication that the teacher was a monk or even affiliated with a monastery; but his report, too, shows the city as a center of higher learning at an early time....

We have to be extremely cautious in dealing with the literary evidence, because much of the information offered in the secondary literature on Taxila is derived from Jataka prose that was only fixed in Ceylon several centuries after the events that it purports to describe, probably some time after Buddhaghosa, i.e. around A. D. 500. Since the data gleaned from the Jatakas probably represent more the imagination of a late commentator than a tradition of factual knowledge, it will be best to neglect these tales and to rely on more authentic sources. We may accept, though, that Taxila was a well known as a center for higher studies in the Buddhist tradition, as it is mentioned again and again.

 ”

It's one thing to make a good faith mistake, but it's another to cite the Scharfe's book for a claim, when there is no evidence for it in this source. That is falsification, plain and simple! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it was a university. I thought it would be pertinent to produce some sources which include the following:-

Many regards, Freedom skies| talk  06:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

No it is not. Your references are not reliable. According to Encyclopaedia Britannica:[1]

“ Taxila, besides being a provincial seat, was also a centre of learning. It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters, such as have been found at Nalanda in the Indian state of Bihar. At Taxila, the preceptor housed his own pupils, who paid for their board and lodging in cash or in the form of service to the teacher and his family. The Buddhist monasteries also catered to the needs of the students and monks. ”

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

  1. ^ * Taxila. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved January 15, 2007, from Encyclopaedia Britannica Online

Your references are not reliable.

This personal opinion could not be more incorrect. The citations as such, are very reliable. If you're attempting to make a case stating that The University outside Europe: Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries (part 3:India) by Edward Bradby. is unreliable then you're mistaken. Also, the "It was not a university town with lecture halls and residential quarters" is misrepresented. The structural differences between universites of the world can be gauged by the "Essays on the Development of University Institutions in Fourteen Countries."

Having said that, I'm on a Wikibreak and have prior commitments on Wikipedia itself when I return. I'll not pursue this presently due to time constraints. Regards,

Freedom skies| talk  15:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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