Talk:Tashelhiyt language

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This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script. For more information, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Berber).

	To-do list for Tashelhiyt language:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Demographics Map Literature Include some scanned manuscripts Dialects Writing systems Last update: — mark ✎ 13:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

the article needs to tell something about the PEOPLE who SPEAK the language. Gringo300 07:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Working on it, Gringo. (What does it say above your comment? 'Add more info on demographics, etc'.) Though most of this would rather belong to the article Chleuh. Maybe you want to read something on this people and expand the article? — mark ✎ 08:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] On hold

One of the very first treatises of Tashelhiyt in European philological literature is Jones, dissertatio de lingua Shilhensi, which itself is part of John Chamberlayn's (1715) collection of language samples titled Dissertationes ex occasione sylloges orationum Dominicarum scriptae (Amsterdam: Willem & David Goeree).

A Berber (Tashelhiyt) version of the Lord's Prayer gives in Jones (1715) is cited in Adelung & Vater's Mithridates, vol. III, p. 54. The first sentence, along with the German interlinear glosses, runs thus:

Amazeagh 'na baba erby ghi y ginna Berkat ysmanick

Herr unser Vater Gott, welcher im Himmel, Geheiligt.werde Nahme.dein

It would prove very interesting to compare this (admittedly mangled) tašlḥiyt with the products of the Sous literary tradition of that time. — mark ✎ 20:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

Recently, 84.178.201.155 (talk • contribs) made the following changes to the article:

1. tasousiyt > tasusiyt (tasousit)
   • That's fine.
2. [təgəm:in:ək] 'your house' > [təgəm:in:əm] 'your house'
   • 'your house' is in fact [təgəm:in:ək], but I assume 84.178.x.x was just copying the non-IPA notation, which was had tigmmi-nn-m indeed (wrongly). I'll fix this.
3. 1st person singular possessive suffix was changed from -ø to -inu/-nu (and "ø = zero morpheme" was removed from the legend of the table)
   • While it is correct that there is a possessive suffix -(i)nu, it doesn't belong in the paradigm given (see the text). I'll fix this later today by adding the full second paradigm.
4. the number nine was changed from tẓẓa to ttẓa
   • I'll check this later today with my sources.

— mark ✎ 10:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It took some time to get to this, but I have just corrected the errors the above edit introduced. — mark ✎ 19:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consonant inventory

According to Abdallah El Mountassir, Tachelhit has 31 consonants. [1] I believe their IPA values are [b d d̴ f g gʷ ʁ ʁʷ h ħ χ χʷ ʒ k kʷ l m n q qʷ r s s̴ ʃ t t̴ w j z z̴ ʕ]. There is also phonemic consonant lenghthening (gemination).

These are all consonants common to Maghrebi Berber languages (Rif and Kabyle have a few more). I'd rather get further verification before I'd edit the article itself. -- LudwigVan 11:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Van den Boogert & Stroomer (2004) list 33. Unfortunately, I don't really have the time at this moment to find out what the differences are, but in case you're interested, I've made a quick scan and put it online here. I'll remove this link in a few days since their work isn't published yet and it shouldn't be circulated without permission. — mark ✎ 19:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The two additional consoants are pharyngealized ("emphatic") /l̴/ and /r̴/, and I've seen other sources list them as phonemes distinct from non-emphatic /l/ and /r/ in Tachelhit and other Berber languages (both are also found in Maghrebi Arabic), so I'd include them in the inventory.

I also have stored away somewhere a Xerox of the chapter from Phonologies of Asia and Africa: Including the Caucasus, edited by Kaye and Daniels, that discusses Berber languages in general, and Rif and Tuareg in particular. I don't remember what it says about Tachelhit. -- LudwigVan 16:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep, pharyngalized /l/ and /r/ definitely should be included. Feel free to edit, by the way! — mark ✎ 07:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Just did so, but the uvular fricatives might be velar instead, I'm not sure. Also, should I indicate an emphatic /t/ as /t̴/ or /tˁ/? -- LudwigVan 03:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it looks beautiful! For emphatics, I'd favor /tˁ/ etc., because that way it is more easy to see the symbol that is modified. — mark ✎ 14:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)