Talk:Tartu

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[edit] Tartu Residence in Toronto

I propose adding an entry to the Tartu residence apartment in Toronto which is located at Madison and Bloor, serving primarily as a residence for students at U of T. It is run by Estonians.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.52.182.42 (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Older discussion

I propose replacing some of the illustrative photos in the article. I noticed that Wikimedia Commons has a few very good and professional-looking photos which are also more representative of Tartu than, for example the current picture of Emajõe Center - especially the university main building at night, Angel Bridge in winter and the kissing students. The current photo of the observatory could use some retouching and in my opinion, the aforementioned picture of Emajõe Center is somewhat bland and lacking in character; this picture could as well have been taken in any other town in the world. In case nobody has an objection, I'd like to replace some of the photos. It would be really great if someone with a good camera and artistic eye could contribute some more pictures, e.g. of Emajõgi River or Toomemägi; I know for sure that there are great photographers in Tartu!

Two lesser issues: I have added a list of Tartu's twin cities; and secondly, a native English speaker should fix stylistic and grammatic mistakes in the article (this problem has been addressed here before). Frukt 23:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The last change switched "Tartu, or Dorpat (in German)" to "Tartu (formerly Dorpat)", which is of course wrong, because it simply depends who says what, or better, who uses what language, rather than on the time. Dorpat is the German, not the historical, name for Tartu, which, e.g., older Estonians, when speaking German (such as Lennart Meri), will still use today, just as the Baltic Germans will. It's interesting here because internationally, it was just much more used in any non-Estonian writing (incl. about all English-language one) until 1918. On the other hand, there was never a time when everyone was saying "Dorpat", as the current version implies. I'm just afraid that this change seems somehow politically motivated, and it's not sensible to get into a fight over this, at least not for me. Andres, if you read this, what do you think as the Estonian EE expert here? Clossius

I agree with your point. I think that in the English Wikipedia "former name" means "former English name", and then this is not wrong, though not the whole truth. As to the German name, of course, Dorpat is the German name, but in German the name Tartu is used for political reasons. Lennart Meri apparently wanted to stress the historical closeness of Estonia to Germany or Germans.
Meri always uses it, not only on a specific occasion, and both in writing and speaking, and also referring to the present. His letters in German as Vabariigi President in German were usually dated, "Tallinn/Reval" or "Reval/Tallinn, den 18. Oktober 1997" (I don't quite recall). And as he did represent Estonia, this is not just an incidental fgure.Clossius
OK, he always wants to stress the connection:-) And of course, Reval is the German name. By the way, today he becomes 75.
Indeed, congrats to him! I still think this is significant (noth the birthday but his usage), because it shows a more "relaxed" attitude towards Germany and/or the German language that is typical for Estonia but not common in many other places. Clossius 19:46, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the situation cannot be explained by any short formula but a whole section should be dedicated to the names both in this article and in the article Tallinn where a similar change occurred. Andres 22:56, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I made the change. My main concern was that "Dorpat" and "Reval" should be bolded and close to the beginning of the article (and in the latter case, separated from a bunch of other alternate names that were never particularly used in English), since anyone reading an older English work would see the older name, and I think it's important that it be clear that these are indeed the same cities. The issue of names in places like this is obviously a difficult one. But surely "Dorpat" and "Reval" are closer to being former names than they are to being current German names. As far as I understand it, before 1918, the German names were primarily used in the west, as well as by the elites of the city themselves. After the independence of the Baltic states in 1918, the Estonian names, already in local use, became the official names. But would it be wrong to say that Dorpat and Reval were the official names of the cities before 1918, and that it was only after that that the official names were changed to Tartu and Tallinn? john 00:25, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The official names of Tartu (in Russian) when under Russia were Derpt and then Yuryev, the official name of Tallinn was Revel. Under Soviet Union (except last years), the official name of Tallinn in the West often was perceived to be Tallin, as this was the Russian official name. Andres 07:47, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Incidentally, the number of Estonians in the city only bypassed the German inhabitants between 1870 and 1880, so "elite" is not quite the right word.Clossius 08:00, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Was it the number of inhabitants or the number of citizens? I suspect there might be a difference.
Also, I think that a substantial number of publications and conversations even today refer to Dorpat, at least in parentheses, and in my judgment generally not differently than a German would say "Moskau" rather than "Moskwa", which she could do as well. But there is a slight political overtone, as Andres mentions - although in the last 10 years, I've only encountered two Estonians who have a problem with "Dorpat" even historically speaking. Still, if I look at this terrible mess with the Polish-German names here on wiki, it would be nice if EE can stay out of that; the Estonian - German Baltic - Russian relationship is too complex for that.

Yes, I certainly didn't want to create another Polish-German name issue. All I was interested in was making sure that people looking up the older (English) name would easily see that name prominently placed in bold near the top of the page, really. For instance, if someone were reading, say, about the Livonian Wars, and came across a reference to Reval (as they very well might), it should be immediately evident that Reval is an older German name for Tallinn, which was and remains the usual English-language name for the city before 1918. But however people more knowledgeable in the history of the naming of Estonian cities want to describe the various alternate names is fine with me. john 09:07, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I now see that you're actually the good guy :-), at least as Tallinn is concerned (the name belongs obviously higher than where it is now; Reval is not just a historical reference). I just saw the Tartu change. Sorry for not checking more carefully! Clossius 10:10, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Also to Andres, for the Estonian place names, we should get a uniform short standard phrase, something that expresses briefly that X is the German and/or historical name for Y (especially in the case of cities of course). I thought that for the opening "X (in German Y)" was fine (and I would relegate the Russian to a later §), and indeed one could eventually add a general article about all this, with all the different actors and speakers and audiences explained. Clossius 10:15, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the formula could be "X (before 1918 in English known under its German name Y)" or something like this. I think the English reader would wonder why the German name is mentioned. But I have no objections of principle to your version. Agree with the rest. Andres 18:58, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Or should one even say, "... 1918 internationally known under..."? Otherwise I can agree with your suggestion. Clossius 19:46, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just an addition: Yesterday's FAZ, Germany's leading daily, says in the main headline, "Von Laibach bis Reval feiern die neuen NATO-Mitglieder" - this just to document that to use Reval in German is not a historical reminiscence but among some, and even in mainstream news media, simply the German term. (I admit I was a bit surprised at that myself, but anyway...) Clossius 12:08, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
i was just wondering how about adding the former Latvian name Tērbata?Which is I'd say rather extensively used,referring to Tartu University-Tērbatas Universitāte,or in the name of Tērbatas iela, a street in Rīga center named for Tartu.
I don't think this makes much sense, because while former South Estonia and North-Western Latvia were Livonia, with Riga as the administrative center and Tartu as the intellectual one, but the language of that unit was either German or Russian, not Latvian. In that sense, the Latvian name of Tartu is not more relevant than, say, the Polish or Finnish one. But what would make sense IMO is to add the Latvian name to the University of Tartu, because of course historically, this was the university for Latvia as well and was key in the formation of the Latvian intelligence and literati. Just a suggestion. Dagöer 10:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The current changes by Mikkalai are not helpful (and not even pc), because in English, the fact is that Tartu was, before 1918 (and actually much longer), known as Dorpat, and as this is the English-language Wikipedia, the entry should list these two names prominently. The discussion above lists the pros and cons of the naming; the sad thing is that now the correct phrasing has been unilaterally changed without comments, and changed back after reversion again, so in my experience, there is no chance for a proper phrasing anymore, and I let it go. Clossius 8:37, 3 Sep 2004 (CET)

The sad thing is that my edits were reverted without explanations. Only after the second revert I looked into the talk page, and saw the light. Instead of wordy complaint here, "see talk" in the "Summary" line would have been enough for me. As for other names, it doesn't matter which language the encyclopedia is. In historical texts you may meet all kinds of spellings and names, even in English texts, hence this information is encyclopedic. Therefore the last revert of John is overkill. Mikkalai 06:43, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History

Maybe there could be a line or two about the destruction of Tartu by Russian army, that was later described in the 'Lament of Käsu Hans'? After all, it was an important point in the town history. (I'm sorry, but I can't find the date right now.)

"In the summer, with the advent of many discount flights and seniors cruises, Tartu also plays host to a host of fat tourists from across the Atlantic." This hardly seems like NPOV. Perhaps drop the "fat"? Kd5mdk 04:45, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I changed the introduction because it did not seem streamlined enough. The historical background and time range of the Russian names should be mentioned in the history section, while the introduction should be a brief overview of the city as it is today. The mentioning of its foundation as Yuryev is relevant at the beginning of the History section, but does not fit in well with the other content in the intro, which is why I removed it. I added 19th century cultural information from this site:[1]. I also renamed some of the headers and rearranged some of the information to better fit the flow of the text. I removed the reference to the Embach because that name is listed in the stub Emajõgi article I created (please feel free to expand upon that). Anyone have any thoughts? Olessi 02:53, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Style and grammar

The last part of the article:

"Presently, Tartu is also known for several modern, rather sterile-looking buildings of the "steel, concrete and glass" type, but has managed to retain a mix of old buildings and new buildings in the historical centre of town.

Being the intellectual and cultural centre of Estonia, the Estonian Prime Minister often takes state guests to Tartu. Famous guests have included Charles, Prince of Wales, the presidents of Finland, Latvia, Hungary, the Republic of Ireland, and Lithuania, as well as religious leaders like the Dalai Lama and the head of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, Patriarch Bartholomew I.

Tartu's large student population means that it has a comparatively thriving nightlife, with some bars, restaurants, and nightclubs. Some of the more popular destinations for tourists include the Wilde Irish Pub and the Gunpowder Cellar."

looks like it has been added in haste. Stylistic and grammatical mistakes here, all of them at the beginning of the paragraph. If I were a teacher of English (and I am) I would say: sure sign that it is copied from some book, and the beginning of each one has been rephrased to make it fit in and look original. [User:Pan_Gerwazy] --pgp 15:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tartu linn ?

Why Tartu linn? The Esti Wiki has Tartu in this place. Xx236 08:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translations.

I have removed the translations from the opening paragraph for the following reasons. The text had previously read:

"Tartu German and Swedish: Dorpat (pronunciation (help·info)), Latvian: Tērbata, Russian: Дерпт (Derpt) or Юрьев (Yuryev))".

Firstly, there are just far too many translations placed in this opening paragraph. Nearly every city in the world could be translated into foreign languages and place on Wiki pages. This is simply overkill in my opinion.

Secondly, while the translations do have value within the body of the article, why are they in the opening paragraph? It seems to make far more sense to me that they be placed in descriptive historical context within the article. After all New York isn't called "Niuew Amsterdam" in its opening paragraph. That's what the history section is for.

Thirdly, while it may be referred to as "Dorpat" frequently in Germany, it isn't anymore in English and hasn't been for many many years. And this is English Wiki, not German Wiki. I doubt many living English speaking individuals recall from first-hand experience it being called Dorpat in their lifetime.

Fourthly, why are there Russian and Latvian translations anyway? This one baffles me. The last time I turned on my television set or read newspaper, or voted, the official language was still Estonian. Yes, I understand historical connection, but that doesn't change the fact that the name is TARTU. Place the others in the body of the article with correct historical context. Thanks. ExRat 20:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The majority of European locality articles have alternate names in or near the lead, as alternate/historical names are frequently referred to in English publications (see User:John Kenney's earlier comments). The alternate names are not included because of present-day usage, but to quickly make clear that "Tartu" is indeed the article they are searching for if someone searches for "Derpt" or who is redirected from Dorpat. The Russian names are important to include, as Derpt and Yuryev are often used for the city in texts about the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. The Latvian name arguably could be removed, but I did not want to unilaterally remove it.
Instead of outright removing information (including my pronunciation of Dorpat), please consider rearranging it instead, as I have done here in the manner of the Tallinn article. Also, when making potentially controversial changes, it is better to mention them on the talk page before changing the actual article. Olessi 20:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I hardly considered this a "controversial" change considering all of this informatiion is within the body of the text where it belongs. ExRat 20:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Olessi is correct. Less than a century ago, the town was officially known as Yuriev. The first document mentioning the place speaks about Yuriev, too. An official historical name should always be present in the lead. We even keep the Estonian name of Pskov in the lead of that article, although the town has never been Estonian. Unilateral attempts to remove undesirable historical facts should be checked as promptly and sternly as possible. --Ghirla -трёп- 23:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This has already been made clear to me by Olessi (the naming conventions, that is) through WP:NC(GN), and I thank him for it. I do not appreciate your assumption that I acted in ill will and removed the translations because I deemed them to be "undesirable facts". That is absolutely not the case. I was merely confused about the proper placement of foreign name translations and historical names in the first paragraph as opposed to being included in the body of the article in historical context. I am also quite aware of what former names of Estonian cities were. Thanks. This was resolved yesterday. ExRat 16:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent historical name

What does it mean? Xx236 11:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

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