Talk:Taoic religion

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Contents 1 Page organization 2 Nature of Taoism 3 Revert 4 map 5 GA Review (on hold) 5.1 Second review 6 Other concerns 7 Dharmic religion is an unsual term 8 Confucianism as part of Taoism? 9 Questions 10 Map request

[edit] Page organization

I have placed editor notes into the main body of the article. This is what I am looking at as a structure, for reference. Comments? Thoughts? Vassyana 12:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added some more material to the article. Any feedback is appreciated. If anyone else has some ideas, by all means be bold. Vassyana 13:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The resulting diff from what I've done. Vassyana 14:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's quite good already. I do have one suggestion though. In China in around the 11th century, there was a merger between Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism (withe the advent of neo-confucianism). This created combination religion that is the ancestor of today's traditional Chinese religion. Because of this, the distinction between these faiths is blurred in China. Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere. Zeus1234 17:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I make some small mention of it in the article. I will create another subsection for it. Vassyana

I added a short stub section for Neo-Confucianism and switch order between sections to lead into it well and maintain the flow of the article. Vassyana 19:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of Taoism

Taoists venerate multiple Immortals and Masters quite the same way Catholics venerate multiple Saints as well as Jews and Muslims venerate multiple angels and prophets. The terms used are different in different languages and cultures but many of the practices are quite similar. Some people who don't know the essence of Taoism will call Taoism polytheistic while call the others monotheistic (It is clearly stated in Tao Teh Ching:"Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to Two. Two gives birth to Three. Three gives birth to all the myriad things") . Usually Taoists won't mind this since they know it's just a name (" The name that can be named is not the eternal name"). But with the term "polytheism"'s connotations in some cultures, it will likely cause unnecessary misunderstandings for some uninformed and/or narrow-minded people, instead of lead people to seek the essence of a long-lasting tradition.

I think it is more correct to call Taoism "pantheistic" or "panentheistic" or even "nontheistic" depending on what you mean by "theos".

Traditional Taoism is strongly associated with Chinese traditional religion, which is distinctly polytheistic, but it could certainly be considered in some forms to be animistic. As the article mentions, panentheistic versions, and especially monotheistic versions do exist, especially in the West. This article is an overview of Taoic religion, particularly in its area of dominance. Finer distinctions and debates about categorization are best included in the main article of the religion in question. Vassyana 02:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I reverted the changes made by User:71.224.215.111. The change from faiths/religion to traditions is POV and unsupported by the sources which clearly state that Taoic religion is religion. The pantheism/panentheism claims are unsupported by the sources which clearly state that traditional Chinese Taoism and chinese folk religion are polytheistic. The comment about Confucian doctrines predating Confucius is out of place and unsourced. Vassyana 17:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Also removed reference to Christianity. While the influence of terminology is interesting, it is not directly related to Taoic religion. Vassyana 17:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] map

according to the legend of the map, this map does not show taoic religions at all, it has two axis, on one is a spectrum from something purpleish representing abrahamic religions to something yellow representing dharmic religons, in between being all possible relative percentages of one to the others, and on the other is the percentage of religious ppl of such mix in the population. So, there is no distinct light yellow collor shown there - the area indicated to as taoic religions is simply collored as low-concentration dharmic religion area. For the text below the picture to match the actuall picture, someone will first have to create the described map. Till then, I will delete the false claim that the map shows the prevailance of, among others, taoic religions on the world. --83.131.143.101 16:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

False. There are two clear strips of bright yellow, noticeable and clear in China. Reverting appropriately. Vassyana 11:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I see you simply reverted my edit about the map supposedly showing taoic religions. But your explanation simply does not hold. Where in that map's legend is bright yellow stated as a separate option? Please explain how you read that legend, as far as I can see, one coordinate shows absolute concentration of the religions covered, the other shows relative concentration of two options - one in its extreme yellow, the other in its extreme purple. Theres simply a lack of a coordinate to cover a third option such as taoic religions, hence theres no possilibity of it being represented on that particular map. Have you contacted the author of the map in question to confirm the claim? I will. --83.131.139.104 10:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Further the sources stated as its source dont include anything countable as a taoic religion, so again its impossible the map would represent it: Distribution of "Abrahamic" vs. "Dharmic" religions, generated from the data at en:Islam by country, en:Christianity by country, en:Jews by country, en:Hinduism by country, en:Buddhism by country. - Ill take this as a positive proof for the removal of the claim, and revert.--83.131.139.104 11:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I was contacted about this map; I did not create it, User:Dbachmann. But the legend as stated above is clear; it does not illustrate Taoic religions. I'll put up a map request below. -- Beland 17:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review (on hold)

well written 

The article reads well and it is quite informative without overwhelming the reader with too much detail.

factually accurate and verifiable

• The subsection on Taoism and Confucianism, first paragraph, third sentence, in which the Tao Te Ching is discussed needs attribution.
• The second sentence in the lead require some sources to support the assertions made.

broad in its coverage

Good coverage, and good summaries of existing articles as per Wikipedia:Content forking

follows the neutral point of view policy

No POV issues.

It is stable

Article is stable with no obvious or unresolved disputed

Images

Good use of images, could add some images related to Confucius

Once these minor aspects are addressed, I would support GA status. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

"The subsection on Taoism and Confucianism, second paragraph, second sentence, in which the Taoe Te Ching is discussed needs attribution." I am correct this refers to: "Historical Taoists challenged conventional morality, while Confucians considered society debased and in need of strong ethical guidance"? You mentioned the Tao Te Ching, so just making sure I'm clear. Vassyana 15:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear on my request. This is the sentence that needs attribution:

The authorship of the Tao Te Ching is assigned to Laozi, who is traditionally thought to be a teacher of Confucius.^[1] However, he appears to be reacting against Confucian doctrine, which potentially suggests the text arose after Confucianism. Zhuangzi reacted to the Confucian-Mohist ethical disputes. Zhuangzi's "history of thought" casts Laozi as a prior step to the Mohists by name and the Confucians by implication.

There is only once source used to address the possible relationship between Lao-Tze and Confucius. The rest lacks sources and/or attribution. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Time for textbook digging, so I can avoid citing other encyclopedias. ;o) Vassyana 17:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hitting the library this afternoon. I will revise the article accordingly tonight or tomorrow morning. Just wanted to update you. Vassyana 19:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Update. Converted most references to specific page references. I will finish the rest later today, along with adding the couple citations requested. I have also added two images to accomodate the request for Confucius images. Also added a well-sourced statement about probable mythical nature of Laozi and Zhaungzi per concern noted below. Thank you for your patience. Vassyana 16:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Looking good, Vassyana. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

[edit] Second review

The only missing citation is for this assertion: "However, he appears to be reacting against Confucian doctrine, which potentially suggests the text arose after Confucianism." You can remove it, and when you find a source for it, re-add it. That we I can proceed and do a second GA review. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I reworded the statement in far more neutral language and provided a source. All the references now are directly referenced to page numbers. Anything else I might have missed that needs to be tightened up while the GA review is on hold? Vassyana 13:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It is looking good, Vassyana. I will do a second review later today. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other concerns

On hold. The link to dharmic religion in the lead is flawed because the term is unusual. I prefer instead the far more common words Hinduism and Buddhism. Andries 20:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not the appropriate place to discuss the objection. If you take strong issue with the phrase Dharmic religion, please discuss it on that article's talk page. Vassyana 19:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

why is this not the appropriate place? This entry links in the lead unnecessarily to an obscure termm that does not explain much. Andries 19:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The source I used compares the Tao/Dharma/Abraham-based religions as comparable categories encompassing the "great faiths" of the world. The naming convention I use is the one found on Wikipedia. If you have an issue with the naming convention you should discuss it at Talk:Dharmic religion. Any further replies here will be ignored. Vassyana 21:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you were misled by Wikipedia. I do not understand why this is not the right place to discuss this point. This entry can choose to link to "dharma" or to "Buddhism" and "Hinduism" instead. What term does the cited source use? Andries 21:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I noticed (with google books) that the cited source ("A Comparative Sociology of World Religions: virtuosos, priests, and popular religion" by Stephen Sharot) does not have the term "dharmic religion" or "dharmic tradition" in the index, so I suspect the term "dharmic religion" in this entry is a free interpretation of the source. I may be mistaken though. Andries 22:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the paragraph quoted above has a few problems. You need to mention that it is uncertain whether Laozi or Zhuangzi even existed as historical people. At the moment, the entire paragraph is founded on the suppostion that the two are historical figures, which is not nescessarily the case. I would change it myself, but I wanted to run this by you first, so you can make modifications if you would prefer.Zeus1234 21:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I'll include that in my edits later tonight. Vassyana 21:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the reference should mention page numbers. The reference section may have to be split in two sections i.e. notes and references. Andries 22:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not like Harvard style referencing in Wikipedia and will not use it here. It is a personal preference and it is not required by Wikipedia. Vassyana 23:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but I think that most experienced contributors will agree that page numbers of books are important in many cases. (If the relevant page can be easily found in the index then I think it is not so important) I am not saying that all citations need page numbers for a good article, but at least a start should be made. Andries 00:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Andries. In my opinion, page numbers should always be used when books are being cited. Otherwise how can we verify the information?Zeus1234

I am adding pages numbers to the references. I was simply saying that I have no desire to split footnotes into references and notes as per the Harvard style, due to personal preference. I apologize for not being clear. Vassyana 09:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dharmic religion is an unsual term

The lead should not link to dharmic religion, because that is an unusal term, both in everyday usage as in religious studies. Andries 19:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Does not seem to be that unusual. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very unusal when compared to e.g. "Hinduism". Andries 20:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

For example, "dharmic religion" plus "dharmic religions" yields four results in google scholar, while "abrahamic religion" plus "abrahamic religions" yields 580 results there. Andries 20:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So what? No one is asserting that Taoic religions are Abrahamic. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think that it is an usual term then I think that it would be easy to find multiple scholarly articles, encyclopedia entries, or books about the term. I cannot find them. Andries 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not replace the term with the more common words Hinduism and Buddhism? Andries 20:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Because it encompasses more than those two religions. Also, you must realize there are many more sources for the Abrahamic faiths available online than for the Dharmic faiths. This is true individually and as a group. Additionally, Western scholarship has unsurprisingly focused more on Western religion. Finally, the "Google test" is very often a poor method of research. It is a useful tool, but not the end-all be-all. This is particularly true of Google Scholar and Google Books, because much of the books listed are not available for viewing and searching, and they only represent a very small fraction of the literature available. Vassyana 20:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

But the other religions are very small in numbers, so we can as well write "Hinduism and Buddhism" instead of dharmic religions. Andries 20:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that not one of the sources used for the entry dharmic religions uses the term! Andries 20:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that there is some truth in the statement that the emphasis in "Western scholarship" is on "Western religion", but you are exaggerating matters. Andries 19:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The term is widely used as "dharmic tradition". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I would be convinced to a great extent if somebody showed multiple scholarly articles, encyclopedia entries, or books about the term "dharmic religion". Andries 20:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's some books that use the term. Dharmic is the appropriate adjective form of Dharma. It's easy enough to find it widely used on the web, even excluding the terms "wiki" and "Wikipedia".

Here's some books showing use of its synonym "Dharmic traditions". Vassyana 21:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I did notice that the term is used on forums, but that is not what I asked for nor are they suitable sources for Wikipedia. Andries 21:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I checked the following sources that do not mention the terms "dharmic religion" or "dharmic tradition".

1. "Dictionary of religions" by Hinnels published by Penguin 1997

2. "Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion" by Schumacher and Woerner Shambala Boston 1994

Andries 21:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confucianism as part of Taoism?

I do not know much about the subject, but classifying Confucianism as a form as Taoist religion does not seem to be undisputed, but this nowhere reflected in the article that states as a fact "The three major Taoic faiths are Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto"

from http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

"Recent figures for the number of "Chinese religionists" include 220 and 225 million. Barrett (World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001) classified 384,806,732 "Chinese folk-religionists," 6,298,597 "Confucianists" and 2,654,514 "Taoists," or about 394 million total.

In comparative religion texts Confucianism, Taoism and Chinese Buddhism are sometimes addressed in three separate chapters, and sometimes treated in one chapter as "Chinese religion." Even today there are very valid reasons for distinguishing Taoism from Confucianism, and distinguishing both from Chinese Buddhism and non-scriptural Chinese folk religion."

Andries 23:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Now you are just being ridiculous. The article does not assert that Confucianism is a form of Taoism. Please stop this inane nitpicking. Also, again if you find the term "Dharmic religion" problematic, you may take it up on that article's talk page. Vassyana 23:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Then what does the sentence "The three major Taoic faiths are Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto" mean? (I admit that I do not know much about the subject). Andries 23:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I was a bit confused by the difference between Taoism and Taoist faith. Andries 23:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That's OK. Even people who study it in-depth find it a bit confusing. ;o) The prevelence of syncretism in East Asia can make distinguishing things, and even using "proper" terminology, quite difficult. To make it even more complicated, many people in East Asia not only practice syncretic faiths, but openly acknowledge being having multiple Taoic and Dharmic religions at the same time. Confused yet? :oD Vassyana 19:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Is the term "Taoic Religion" the correct term? I have studied the religions of China for over ten years, and I never heard that term. Is there a citation to verify the term? Also I think that "Tao" should be changed to the pinyin "Dao." Chinese-English are using pinyin. It will make it easier to look up Chinese words. Thanks John196920022001 12:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

A foundational work in the grouping of the Tao based religions is Religion in China: Universism a Key to the Study of Taoism and Confucianism, by J. J. M. de Groot. It was originally published in the early 20th century. Another important work is The Comparative Study of Religions of the East (excluding Christianity and Judaism) by Edwin Oliver James. Formal religious studies departments and comparative religion scholars have struggled on a "proper" name for this body of religions. So, it is difficult to find a name that will appease everyone. If you have a better suggestion, I'd welcome it. On the term itself, I will hit the library tomorrow and grab a few references for you. Vassyana 14:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

If there are competing definitions or use of terms, we could simply list these and attribute them to the notable proponents of these terms or definitions. ≈ jossi ≈

(talk) 14:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have added a section discussing the use of terms. I avoided going with a list because of the sheer number of variations and usages of those terms. I hope the section I added is sufficient to cover the topic. If it is lacking, please let me know and I will improve it. Vassyana 14:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

As for the use of pinyin, see Tao Te Ching and Laozi, the former does not use pinyin, the latter does. So it is not an established standard that we use pinyin in WP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The good thing is that we can use redirects, such as Dao De Jing and Lao Tzu to accommodate both romanizations. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

See also Daoism-Taoism romanization issue ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Using Pinyin or Wade-Giles is a matter of preference. As someone who has learned Chinese, I hate Wade-giles because it does not correspond very well actual sound. Pinyin is gradually taking over, and hopefully will kill off the remaining wade-giles transliterations that are still used.Zeus1234 21:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The reason why I proposed using pinyin is because I am learning Chinese, and the dictionaries and glossaries I have all ues Pinyin. The reason why I am learning Chinese is so I can better understand the I Ching (Pinyin Yi Jing). The text the all English translations of the I Ching are based on is a text in the 1700s. I find the Chinese classics intriguing John196920022001 23:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, everything should be in Pinyin, but some people get very prickly about it (because apparently it is 'a tool' of the communist government).Zeus1234 01:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The good thing, Zeus, is that we can have both romanizations in Wikipedia, by the use of redirects. So those that prefer Pinyin, can find their way around, and those that know better Wade-Giles, can also navigate and search for articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map request

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.

Expanding or creating a similar map to Image:Abraham Dharma.png which shows Taoic religions would be informative. -- Beland 17:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)