Talk:Taniwha
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I edited the first article cause it sounded like a textbook I read in school back in the eighties, round bout the same time they still taught that left handed people were evil and beating children with canes was a good thing.
- well the truth is that I WAS beaten with a cane several times in the 60's, while at HTC, the school that used that Taniwharau logo. G. A. aka 'The Snake' was the abuser of young men, read all about him at www.oldfriends.co.nz .moza 05:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- sanitized by moza, on request, as the alleged abuser may not have the opportunity to defend himself. He was likely 40 something in 1965, so yes he probably didnt live to be 81, but then again he may have. My form teacher at the time recently clocked in, but he is not much older than me, he was a new teacher, perhaps 20 in 1964 when i was 13. I will look up the web pages and report the urls back here, of all the other Named persons who confirm my allegation. Its hard to have sympathy for someone who physically hurt young men, in my case I had the 'Bond Scholarship' for being top of my stream (Building), and the cane was alledgely for disobedience; i failed to do my maths homework. Well I had never done homework ever until then, I didnt need to, i worked hard in class and I had always been the best of my group. So much for education in NZ in 1965. This is part of Kiwi cultural history; we physically BEAT our young men into submission. It was grossly unfair then and is now against the law, as it should be. I have 4 children, I have never required physical punishment for my 18 yr old son, by anyone, ask him. For the record I was also beaten by the principal, aka 'Noddy' for cutting phone lines that I thought were messy and in our way in the bookshop that we ran. I was also beaten by the 'Mechanics Teacher' for being late for his class, with 5 others. It was the first after lunch and we were top of his class as well. So thats 3 beatings in 2 years, how do you think that I coped with that as a teenager?moza 05:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Not very well, I'd say ):-. Moza, the article is about the Taniwha, and this page is for discussion about Taniwha or the article. It is not intended for discussion of teachers belting schoolkids. Moriori 09:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Youre right, but now it exists, so if we can find references we can create an article about the last century style of education in NZ. You will probably have noticed that I spew a bit here and there, so if all my contributions are collected, and the negative attitude stuff removed, I have core material for a book. Once the book is published, then I can use the ISBN as a reference to put some of the material into the articles.moza 00:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- Not very well, I'd say ):-. Moza, the article is about the Taniwha, and this page is for discussion about Taniwha or the article. It is not intended for discussion of teachers belting schoolkids. Moriori 09:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- sanitized by moza, on request, as the alleged abuser may not have the opportunity to defend himself. He was likely 40 something in 1965, so yes he probably didnt live to be 81, but then again he may have. My form teacher at the time recently clocked in, but he is not much older than me, he was a new teacher, perhaps 20 in 1964 when i was 13. I will look up the web pages and report the urls back here, of all the other Named persons who confirm my allegation. Its hard to have sympathy for someone who physically hurt young men, in my case I had the 'Bond Scholarship' for being top of my stream (Building), and the cane was alledgely for disobedience; i failed to do my maths homework. Well I had never done homework ever until then, I didnt need to, i worked hard in class and I had always been the best of my group. So much for education in NZ in 1965. This is part of Kiwi cultural history; we physically BEAT our young men into submission. It was grossly unfair then and is now against the law, as it should be. I have 4 children, I have never required physical punishment for my 18 yr old son, by anyone, ask him. For the record I was also beaten by the principal, aka 'Noddy' for cutting phone lines that I thought were messy and in our way in the bookshop that we ran. I was also beaten by the 'Mechanics Teacher' for being late for his class, with 5 others. It was the first after lunch and we were top of his class as well. So thats 3 beatings in 2 years, how do you think that I coped with that as a teenager?moza 05:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] some deleted material for future reference
Taniwha were often regarded as guardians to Maori tribes or as pets or friends to specific historical/legendary people (much as sharks were throughout much of Polynesia, especially Tonga). In most creation myths however taniwha were wrongly described as terrible monsters. (NB By and large, sharks feature much less often in Maori legend than they do in other Polynesian societies, again suggesting that the concept has been transferred across cultures, but given another form).
- funny how its easier to remove than to find a reference..moza 00:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Koru?
So what's this stuff about taniwha being depicted as covered in 'koru'? Is there any basis to that? The mosasaur stuff and the cryptid stuff is off the wall too. This article needs a good cleanup I think Kahuroa 20:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
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- "Haumuri Bluff. Where: Approximately 20km south of Kaikoura, Okarahia Sandstone, Tarapuhi Grit, and Conway Siltstone (Piripauan - Hamurian Stages); Laidmore Formation When & Who: Amateurs collected material prior to that by Haast in 1869, however it was Haast’s, followed by those of Travers in 1871 (Taniwhasaurus oweni and Mosasaurus mokoroa), and McKay during 1872-73, that the historic early descriptions by Haast (1870) and Hector (1874) became widely known. Unfortunately, material recovered during extensive collecting at Haumuri Bluffs by McKay in 1876, was lost following arrival in the United States. Hector himself arranged for this large shipment aboard the Theresa Cosulich for later examination by that icon of early American fossil collecting, Edward Drinker Cope. Refer to the web-pages headed "Current and Future Work" for detail of the recoveries from early in 1999. What: Material diagnoses to genus and species level: Mauisaurus haasti, Tylosaurus haumuriensis, Taniwhasaurus oweni, Mosasaurus mokoroa. Material diagnosed to family level only: A range of plesiosaurid, elasmosaurid, polycotylid, mosasaurid, and reptilian material". I dont think they called it Taniwhasaurus as a joke, I do think they were quite serious, and its verified as far as I can tell, at the website url given. I have seen the mosasaur jaws with my own eyes, in the care of the GNS, lower hutt, New Zealand. I went to the school that used Taniwharau as the official emblem, HTC, Hamilton New Zealand. I dont know much about covered in Koru though, perhaps 'adorned with' may be a better way of saying it. Youre welcome to improve the article, and discussion here is cool, so thanks for that.moza 19:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting, but not really very much to do with taniwha there. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia-quality article about a Māori mythological creature, so what scientists decide to call a fossil species that predated the arrival of humans on earth by millions of years cannot inform us about the taniwha. All it would warrant is a note to say that a mosasaur was named 'taniwhasaurus' in honour of the mythological creature. The taniwha's ultimate origins lie in the myths and legends of tropical Polynesia, and there is, I'd wager, no evidence that Māori found mosasaur bones and equated them with taniwha. I am going to delete the covered with koru thing. The only creatures adorned with koru are Air New Zealand jets. The whole thing about Māori mythological creatures is that their appearance was almost never described in much detail in the stories, so there was no one way to 'depict' them in drawings or carvings. The pictures in the article could be better too. A good picture for this article might be of a carving from a meeting house, depicting a taniwha - but even that would not constitute a 'standard' way of depicting taniwha - just one person's interpretation. Kahuroa 21:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- I more or less agree with a lot of what you say, but not your method of trampling on something I care deeply about. Yes it is a very personal experience by its nature, and I cant be bothered with fighting about it, but I do care about respect, and killing other peoples effort with little discussion is not going to be a a very productive way of airing the available information. what do i have to do, go off and create a Taniwhasaurus article? If you have images with permission then by all means place them, but perhaps a bit sad to delete other pics. I have many suitable, but i simply wont risk offence by their usage, I KNOW that placement and reproduction of such imagary is critically important to many new Zealanders. Cant you see the relationship between the carving shapes and styles and the shell and fern that I posted? Wikipedia is more than what either of us think or want it to be, and deletionist behaviour is, in my opinion, incitement to edit wars, both sad outcomes from what could be the greatest sharing experience in the history of civilisation. is there any way we can collaborate with respect? Isnt there enough room for the previous material? I think its great that you want to fix it, but maybe all aspects can find a place. I cant bring my taniwha dreams to the article yet, but they are relevant, perhaps psuedo-science, but who can label art with authority anyway. I dont think that science can fully cover this subject, by its nature it must be a personal interpretation, and I note that you seem to agree it is a multi-faceted beast. I understand the rules, but often in wikipedia the information comes ahead of the verification, ie there is a time component to the process. I believe the Taniwharau image is worthy of placement at the very least, I spent 4 long and difficult years under that emblem, and i will replace it if no one else does. It symbolizes institutionalised power that was fierce and maladjusted. It existed for about 70 years and is an important component of enzed history, for of us. Maybe it appears to be something different, but its not intended. I recently saw a taniwha in the night sky, its called an asterism, and its a shape made up of several stars. My friends have drawn the kiwi for instance. The sky was extremely important to the Pacific peoples, and such asterisms are of high value for navigation and cropping, the two most important survival activities in times past. If we can table our concerns maybe we can build a truly excellent article, one that is certainly deserving of this subject, and not trivialised. cheers.moza 09:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting, but not really very much to do with taniwha there. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia-quality article about a Māori mythological creature, so what scientists decide to call a fossil species that predated the arrival of humans on earth by millions of years cannot inform us about the taniwha. All it would warrant is a note to say that a mosasaur was named 'taniwhasaurus' in honour of the mythological creature. The taniwha's ultimate origins lie in the myths and legends of tropical Polynesia, and there is, I'd wager, no evidence that Māori found mosasaur bones and equated them with taniwha. I am going to delete the covered with koru thing. The only creatures adorned with koru are Air New Zealand jets. The whole thing about Māori mythological creatures is that their appearance was almost never described in much detail in the stories, so there was no one way to 'depict' them in drawings or carvings. The pictures in the article could be better too. A good picture for this article might be of a carving from a meeting house, depicting a taniwha - but even that would not constitute a 'standard' way of depicting taniwha - just one person's interpretation. Kahuroa 21:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- re-looking at the article it is more comprehensive than i thought, so write off what i said about that, its not too bad and is looking more respectful, and I wont put that image back, thanks for cleaning it up, it did need it. lets focus on references and more info about the core subject. How do I go about getting permission to use such images that you uploaded? if its in the public view its legally ok, but i want more than that, i want the 'owners' of such objects to participate in their image set and setting here, and thats difficult.moza 09:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- "Haumuri Bluff. Where: Approximately 20km south of Kaikoura, Okarahia Sandstone, Tarapuhi Grit, and Conway Siltstone (Piripauan - Hamurian Stages); Laidmore Formation When & Who: Amateurs collected material prior to that by Haast in 1869, however it was Haast’s, followed by those of Travers in 1871 (Taniwhasaurus oweni and Mosasaurus mokoroa), and McKay during 1872-73, that the historic early descriptions by Haast (1870) and Hector (1874) became widely known. Unfortunately, material recovered during extensive collecting at Haumuri Bluffs by McKay in 1876, was lost following arrival in the United States. Hector himself arranged for this large shipment aboard the Theresa Cosulich for later examination by that icon of early American fossil collecting, Edward Drinker Cope. Refer to the web-pages headed "Current and Future Work" for detail of the recoveries from early in 1999. What: Material diagnoses to genus and species level: Mauisaurus haasti, Tylosaurus haumuriensis, Taniwhasaurus oweni, Mosasaurus mokoroa. Material diagnosed to family level only: A range of plesiosaurid, elasmosaurid, polycotylid, mosasaurid, and reptilian material". I dont think they called it Taniwhasaurus as a joke, I do think they were quite serious, and its verified as far as I can tell, at the website url given. I have seen the mosasaur jaws with my own eyes, in the care of the GNS, lower hutt, New Zealand. I went to the school that used Taniwharau as the official emblem, HTC, Hamilton New Zealand. I dont know much about covered in Koru though, perhaps 'adorned with' may be a better way of saying it. Youre welcome to improve the article, and discussion here is cool, so thanks for that.moza 19:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I appreciate your bighearted attitude. I took the picture of Ureia, so that made that easier. Suggest you log on to Wikimedia Commons and set up an account, browse around and see how things work. What I want is for Taniwha as an article is that it is true to its topic - which has to be the traditional Māori stories about taniwha - pure and simple. To deal with the approach you seem to want, it would have to be a separate article, but if you want to include the personal experiences of yourself and others you might run up against the Wikimedia policy against original research: Wikipedia:No original research - anything you add has to be able to be verified, that is, it must come from a reliable source Wikipedia:Reliable sources that others can refer to and verify the information from: Wikipedia:Verifiability. There are articles on Wikipedia that deal with what some might call 'pseudo-science' - but if they last it will only be if they are written from an encyclopedic point of view. And why not a separate article for Taniwhasaurus if you think you have the material? Kahuroa 19:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
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- yes the article is quite excellent now, so a good job well done! no i dont want personal experiences, thats a confusing aside and only suitable for discussion pages, unless documented elsewhere. An artists work thats published though, could be valid. I have an unshakeable faith in the connection between Taniwha and Mosasaur, and I have been exposed to some kaumatua with similiar ideas, i just need to find the papers he gave me. He said he had been searching many years for that connection. I understand and comply with the verification and un-originality concepts overall, its just that until someone gets down and does the job properly like you have. There is often a long period of minimal content, and i was suggesting that a greater range of speculative material might be more stimulating in terms of people getting involved. Then that content can move to subset articles if worthy. yes i tracked your image back and i have a wiki commons account but i'm only doing a smuch as i feel these days, i have increased astronomy and photography in my life so wiki drops down a notch. But i will be back for sessions about stuff i can verify and contribute images for. I drove past long-swamp a few weeks back and just didnt stop and take pics, it doesnt seem like Taniwha territory to me, and i wasnt inspired. I do want to capture the essence/s of the thing/s, if i can. Its one way of bringing new material to wiki and the world, and clearly part of the cultural diversity of this corner of the planet, and will be valued increasingly as globalisation creates blandness everywhere.moza 14:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
