Talk:Tangerine Dream/Oct 2004–Jul 2006

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Contents

Removed text

I removed the following from 'History':

(he is widely acclaimed as one of the masters — if not the master — of the Big Moog;however, those who have heard Froese's solo release "Epsilon in Malaysian Pale" would give the Master's title to him.)

I thought it added little, and was becoming a bit of a fannish argument with no references.Naturenet 08:20, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Froese has never been acclaimed as the master of the Moog, and certainly not in reference to Epsilon. However, if you substitute Mellotron for Moog...

Album pages

I've created what can hopefully serve as a good template for other Tangerine Dream album pages: Ricochet (album). Anybody want to help work on some? Kaldari 23:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and did Electronic Meditation. (I wasn't really sure what to do with the re-release cover art.) I like the template; nice work! I'll probably just do a few here and there, chronologically from the beginning. If I'm feeling really motivated (and have the time), I may try to start articles for some of my favorites that are missing (Stratosfear, Tangram (album), etc.). Thanks for the template! —HorsePunchKid→龜 02:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I've enhanced the Ricochet page "template", please have a look and consider improving/pondering it before doing all other albums with the old code.

Discography organization

I'm not sure I completely follow the logic of the new discography organization. It seems inconsistent. For example, is Soundmill Navigator a live album or a concert composition album (like Ricochet)? If it's a concert composition album, shouldn't it be listed under the year it was arranged (2000) rather than the year of the source material recording (1976)? This is the logic behind listing Green Desert at 1986, right? If, however, it's a live album, it would make sense to list it at 1976, but under the Live section rather than under studio and concert albums. Kaldari 19:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I really think it should be changed back to being organized by release date, as those dates are far less ambiguous. Kaldari 20:12, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

-

Hi. I knew the change wasn't very clear by itself, that's why I had attempted to explain/document it in the hidden comment at the beginning of the Discography section (diff). Obviously they were neither self-evident nor explained enough, and we don't have a consensus. So here are the full rationals of my (now deleted) changes, for what would have been a better, encyclopedic organization of a discography (instead of a mere wikilist of released records). It's long because it'll remain for the record and for future editors.

First, the larger context. Especially for such a vast discography, we want to accurately separate and qualify the core, original material that's the band's actual oeuvre (original compositions, whether in studio or in concert) from the secondary, derivative material (live rehashes, remixes, compilations, box sets). Which, for TD's live records, means distinguishing between:

  • So-called "concert albums" (entirely made up of original compositions, created in concerts, such as Ricochet, or mostly, such as Encore) -- the core stuff you can't find elsewhere in a previous studio album, so we plug it with the original studio albums, in order to get the main discography of original material.
  • So-called "live recordings" (entirely or mostly made up of secondary, derivative material, that is live re-playing of older tracks already available in the core discog, lives such as Rockface or Sohoman) -- the stuff you already have elsewhere in a previous studio or concert album, so we segregate it in a secondary, "Live recordings" section.

(BTW, this was already the old discography's modus operandi before my changes, as explained in its intro line; I had just renamed the "Albums" section into "Studio and concert albums" to make the summary more clear.)

Now, inside of this "Studio and concert albums" section, we had two smaller problems to manage, for which I thought the useful and encyclopedic approach was to try and keep the discography reasonably consistent with respect to the bigger picture of the actual music/epochs/lineups/progression, rather than the flat commercial and contingent schedule of releases dates.

First problem was:

  • Where and how to list albums which have been re-issued with new names, w/o significant content changes, such as Quichotte (1980) which became Pergamon (1986), and Livemiles (1988) become Live Miles (1996). For those, I had thought more practical and more accurate to:
    • List them only once, of course
    • Keep them at their old, original issue date (which more importantly is also or almost their recording date, the epoch of how their music sounds) thus keeping the discography's progression consistent and cohesive.
    • But to pragmatically list first their new, definitive name, because that's what they are now (you won't find a Quichotte CD), and to only namecheck their original name (for the record, and also for googling).
Hence entries with all the information such as:
(1980) Pergamon - concert (1986 title, formerly Quichotte)

Second problem was:

  • Where and how to list albums which have been issued much later than their original composition/recording date (albums released one year after recording are common and not concerned), such as Soundmill or Green Desert. Furtheremore, we had a real difference between those two albums, and here's what's encyclopedic in trying to accurately separate them:
    • Soundmill Navigator is a full 1976 original composition, recorded in concert. It's been released only in 2000, after tapes cleanup and minor, unsignificant musical changes (of the same kind of those applied to Ricochet etc.) , and it indeed sounds like a vintage Baumann Epoch TD album. That's why I thought accurate and encyclopedic to list it at 1976 (and among original albums, just like Ricochet etc. were), of course with full information about its actual nature and status:
      (1976) Soundmill Navigator - concert (released 2000)
    • Green Desert, on the other hand, and for what we know, was a loose set of uncompleted studio works done by Froese and Franke in 1973 during Baumann's vacations. It's only in 1984 that Froese took back the raw material and finished it for a 1986 release, significantly altering the music and its sounds, thus arguably generating a 1986 TD album rather than releasing a 1973 record, and it does indeed sound like 1980s TD soundtracks. That's why (even though it's debattable) I thought accurate and encyclopedic to list it at 1986, of course with full information about its actual nature and status:
      (1986) Green Desert (1986 reworks of 1973 tapes sans Baumann)

Doing so doesn't conceal any information, and thus isn't revisionist. It is only used for better placement of each entry in the whole list, so as to generate a more coherent and cohesive list. Another way to word the divide is to note that Soundmill sounded already like this in 1976, whereas Green Desert never would have sounded like this if finished and released in 1973.

...Last but not least, about *your* later changes:

I have to make it very clear that IMO you completely ruined the discography by removing classic original TD albums such as Ricochet, Poland, Logos, etc. from the main discography (where they already were before my changes anyway), for the reasons exposed above.

Furthermore, your reorganization seems fake and inconsistent because Inferno too is a live concert (of original compositions, just like Ricochet etc.) -- you simply deleted the concert mention (diff) in order to keep it in the Studio section, which, I have to say, I find intellectually dishonest.

Also, it's IMO a largely unencyclopedic way of writing a discography. What is encyclopedic is gathering and making use of actual and factual informations about records in order to document and qualify entries and generate an ordered set of consistent, cohesive sections. A discography isn't a mere publishing history, it's also a partial reorganization of informations after the facts to paint a whole picture, in part custom-tailored to a band and its specifics (such as, here, the creation of large original compositions rehearsed and recorded during live concerts).

Sorry, but your merely using the releases date, and merely putting all lives together (indiscriminately conflating original live compositions and live rehashes of older tracks) isn't encyclopedic (a computer and a records database could generate a list with your criteria). It results less in a discography than in a releases list. Also, it is less useful as an article for the normal reader (who doesn't know the TD discog by heart and wants to separate the original material and its epochs, from the rest).

Blindly using releases dates and segregating all lives isn't "less ambiguous", it's "less ambitious".

Bottom line, I think that:

  • All original material should be back together, studio and original concerts
  • If you maintain a basic studio/live discrimination, Inferno would have to go to Lives too [1]
  • Soundmill should be positionned at 1976 because it essentially remains a 1976 record [2]
  • Whether Green Desert should be positionned at 1973 or 1986 certainly is more subjective and debattable, it just seems clear to me it essentially fits more among the 1980s releases [3]

And I wonder: Did you listen to Soundmill Navigator and Green Desert?

62.147.39.4 14:26, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Ostensibly, I agree with everything you're saying. The problem is that your discography is original research, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. If you can show me a bibliographic source for your discography arrangement, I'll be happy to go along with it. I completely agree that having it arranged by release date is unambitious, but unfortunately its not Wikipedia's place to try to invent the definitive source-material-analysis TD discography. I also think your unique definition of "live" is going to be confusing to readers. We should go with the classifications already in use elsewhere on the internet. Even if we did go with your organization, how is Soundmill Navigator different than say the Bootlegs Boxsets? Shouldn't Bootlegs Boxset vol.1 be listed under 1974-1976 by your logic?
And yes, I have listened to Soundmill Navigator, Green Desert, and virtually every bootleg and rerelease from the 70s. I have not however listened to Inferno, and I was under the impression that it was a regular studio album, but on that I could very well be mistaken, as I know very little about TD releases after the 70s.
Since you seem to be quite knowledgable about many of these albums, I would encourage you to elaborate on them in individual articles rather than trying to explain all the intricasies in the discography (which is an impossible task anyway). Just be sure to make sure that everything is verifable and not original research. If you follow the Wikipedia guidelines strictly you should be able to write all these articles without ever having listened to Tangerine Dream at all.
Kaldari 15:12, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Discography arrangement original research?? It doesn't really require research to note that TD's older live albums are generally original music which hasn't appeared on studio albums (every TD fan knows this!), while the newer ones are generally rehashes of previously released tracks. Taking a glance at a live album's tracklist is enuff to determine which group it falls to - you indeed needn't to listen to any of them to see which are originals and which aren't.
However, rather than just tossing unusual categorizations at the reader, I think the discography should simply explicitely explain TD's unusual release antics. It doesn't necessarily take much more than a note saying something along the lines of "Most of TD's live albums, incl. all up to 220 Volt, consisted of original material which hadn't previously appeared on studio albums; therefore the live/studio album dichotomy is not really useful with TD", which is accurate enuff.
(The Vault series might need a short explanation too.)
In a sense, the few non-original live albums, eg Tournado, would be best counted among collections...Tropylium 18:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Images

If anyone gets to V or Ossiach Live, let me know and I will supply proper images. --Gadget850 15:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

A nice offer, but both being long sold out compilation albums which only featured one T.D. track, I don't think that'll be needed. Tropylium 18:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Considering how much fancruft gets added to Wikipedia, who knows. Kaldari 18:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Missing album

I did not see The Dream Roots Collection on the list. Is there a reason why it isn't included?

The discography lists in this article are selective rather than comprehensive. Feel free to add anything that you feel merits inclusion. Kaldari 16:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

First Western band to visit socialist country?

The assumption is not grounded well, I guess. Blood, Sweat & Tears visited Romania, etc. in 70s, probably some others as well. 80.90.225.55 11:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The liner notes of my Pergamon CD state just: "Following two years of negotiation, T.D. were invited to play two concerts in East Berlin - the first Western rock group to do so (...)" - but on other releases of the album, I've seen this vary as far as "the first major rock group to perform in a socialist country". I don't know how big BSaT are, but I'm not surprized if the stronger version of the claim turns out to be just a TD myth. Tropylium 17:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's the only relevant info I could find on the official TD website:
"TD were invited to play in East Berlin. No other artist from the western part of germany was allowed to do this before..."
The text can be found on this page. Kaldari 23:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
According to this page, Blood, Sweat & Tears were the "first contemporary band to break through the Iron Curtain with a historic 1970 tour of Romania, Poland, and Yugoslavia." Kaldari 00:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
So basically, can we rest this by saying, "No other artist from the western part of Germany was allowed to do this before..." Whereas BS&T were the first contemporary [whatever that means...] band to play it. TD was the first western german band to play in East Berlin. Doesn't sound that complicated, but I may be missing something.Theswad 09:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tangerine Dream: 70-80

I removed this section of text, as it is copied from ArticleAlley. While that article does show as "free for republishing", it does not actually show it as public domain. It also is contrary to Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources. --Gadget850 21:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Origin of band name

>the group came to be called Tangerine Dream, a Surrealistic pun derived from German, where "tree" is "baum" and "dream" is "traum."

Is there a source for this claim? If not, I'm inclined to remove it as I have never heard this theory elsewhere. Kaldari 20:44, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I do recall reading it years ago (which is why I added it), but can't find it now. Possibly in Keyboard magazine? I used to be a regular reader and remember seeing an article on them in there. It seems fairly obvious to me though; Froese is clearly fond of surreal wordplay. Jerry Kindall 09:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's what I was able to dig up on the internet:

  • A reference to 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds'. Tangerine trees and marmalade skies. - AmIRight.com, Submitted by: Roger Francis
  • I read an interview with them in the 70's and they said they named themselves after a beatles lyric on Sgt Pepper. I though nothing of it, until i was looking through the lyrics to Lucy in the Sky, and realised they had misunderstood/misheard the lyric 'tangerine trees'; well, they are german. are they the only band to be named after a misheard lyric? - AmIRight.com, Submitted by: mark
  • The name Tangerine Dream is a mystery. One popular myth is that the name Tangerine Dream came from the "Lucy in the Sky" song. Edgar says this is not true, and that it is in fact an acronym, but will not divulge the meaning, or origin. - Unofficial TaDream FAQ

Kaldari 21:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough... I've edited it to say the name is surreal-sounding, which I don't think can be denied. The name does reflect the times in that way. Jerry Kindall 22:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Many people think that Tangerine Dream got their name from a 1967s album called "Tangerine Dream" by a folksy psychedelic rock band called Kaleidoscope. I also know that many mistake that lp as being an early album by Tangerine Dream. They mistake the title of the album to be the band's name. {re- allmusic.com link: [4]) Dunk meister 01:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. I'd never heard about that album before. Kaldari 05:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Well I doubt that it's something Edgar would mention or even admit too. Of what I've read what he's said in interviews it seems he's more interested in re-writing (TD) history and keeping up an aura of mystique than stating facts. Dunk meister 12:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Is Tangerine Dream "New Age"?

Discuss. Kaldari 05:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to most people. This 'new age' thing is a personal project of User:Dunk meister, and he's done it to many other pages, all of which (as far as I can see) have been reverted. I'm trying to explain good editing practice at his talk page and any contributions would be welcomed. Naturenet | Talk 09:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
To a lot of people all ambient music, electronic music with not baseline, space music, and modern classicla music is new age. Most of the people who think this hold all of the afore mentioned in disdane. This does not seem to be the case with User:Dunk meister, and they are helped allong by the likes of the major music retailers who like to have (with justification from a bussness perspective) big over reaching categories to dump music in. That said, if we were to let User:Dunk meister have his way then all of the music classification on wikipedia woudl likely be reduced to 3 or possibly 4 generas. Dalf | Talk 09:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Not all ambient, electronic or modern classical music is New Age Music. Only certain styles of each. Most of the music of Tangerine Dream, Vangelis and Jean Michel Jarre and some of Klaus Schulze's music is known as New Age Music and has been for nearly 30 years. Retailers use genres to seperate different styles and genres of music. They are not the cause of a piece of music being in a certain genre. They just utilize it to sell music to it's fan base. Blaming retailers for music belonging under a certain genre shows ignorance in knowing how genres become into being and evolve. Tangerine Dream being known as New Age music has more to do with the music itself, it's fans, the imagery and themes of the music, radio shows that made them more popular, DJs that play(ed) their music, printed and other media and the record companies that put out the music. It's the same way with most every genre out there.

Many people worldwide consider the music of Tangerine Dream to be New Age or New Age Synthesizer music. It's a valid and widely used term (genre) for their music.

"if we were to let User:Dunk meister have his way then all of the music classification on wikipedia woudl likely be reduced to 3 or possibly 4 generas."

This is a ridiculous statement that has no merit. If anything, I am for using all (fitting) genre and style terms for music. I have been listening to, collecting and been involved with electronic (and non electronic) music for nearly 30 years now. If something is "minimal techno" I use that term when it fits the music. If it's "glitch IDM" I use it to describe the music. If it's New Age Spacemusic I use that term too. Denying a genre because you don't like some of the negative hype surronding it is a poor reason for denying it. In the case of bands/artists like Tangerine Dream, Vangelis and JMJ, the negative/cheesy New Age comments had as much to do with their post 1980's musical output as most any other New Age artists. re-Lasar Harp , b-movie soundtracks, etc ;-) Dunk meister 12:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think Dunk meister has a point. Many retailers classify Tangerine Dream as New Age and many people consider much of their music to be New Age (according to a Google search). It is Wikipedia policy, however, to refer to groups as they indentify themselves. To quote the Wikipedia Manual of Style:
"Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self identification). This can mean calling an individual the term they use, or calling a group the term most widely used by that group."
Looking through the official Tangerine Dream website, I could not find any case of them identifying themselves as "New Age". They do, however, often use the term "electronic music", for example: "The Dream Mixes series gives the listener a chance to see the music of Tangerine Dream from a new viewpoint and proves that the 'godfathers of electronic music' can still easily compete with their younger successors from the club- and dance- scene." Kaldari 16:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Artists and musicans seldom have major input on classifing their music. There are countless "IDM" artists that don't use that term for their music but many of their fans, the media, etc do. They become known as "IDM" artists. Many musicians don't care for any labelling of their music/art. But most people do use descriptive genre or style terms in reference to the music.

"electronic music" is a meaningless term these days. It has been a meaningless and non descript term for many years. It's like calling country or punk music that ultilizes guitars "guitar music" instead of using defining genre or style terms. Much rock music of the 1970s used synth/keyboards not to mention disco, funk, R&B and many other genres/styles of music.

Ironically, Tangerine Dream uses a lot of non-electronic equipment in their music. From guitars, drums to horns and strings.

If Wikipedia just used descriptions or terms that artists themselves used I bet more musicians would be labelled "Masters of..". Should an encyclopedia use the biased fews of the artists themselves or should it use more universal and widely known and more descriptive terms/genres/styles. I say the later. Dunk meister 21:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

addendum - Wikipedia lists Skinny Puppy as "Skinny Puppy is an influential industrial band, which formed in Vancouver, BC, Canada during the early 1980s.". Skinny Puppy was in the 2nd or 3rd generation of "Industrial" groups. Their sound was more "goth-rock" than earlier styles of "Industrial Music" By yes, they still made "industrial music". Skinny Puppy's official website lists them as the vague "electronic-rock". They also make reference to themselves being a "synthesizer based outfit". I didn't see any mention of "Industrial" in there.

I think it is fair to list Tangerine Dream as a New Age band or group. The bulk of their music was and is New Age Music. Dunk meister 23:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


I think the problem many people have with labelling Tangerine Dream "New Age", is that Tangerine Dream is best known for the music they made in the 70s, which is hard to classify other than calling it Berlin School electronic music. None of the modern genres of electronic music had been formed yet, thus it's hard to say that Tangerine Dream belonged to one in particular. The same is true for Kraftwerk and Klaus Schulze. Sure, the stuff that Tangerine Dream made in the 80s is arguably "New Age", but I don't think most people define the band from that era of their work. That said, I don't think calling Tangerine Dream "New Age" is completely wrong, I just don't think you're going to be able to convince people that Tangerine Dream "is a New Age group". Maybe it would be more appropriate to add in a section about the band's role in influencing early New Age music, and how much of their output from the 80s is classified as "New Age" (although the band members themselves do not use this term). Kaldari 23:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you'd be hardpressed to find many people who have even heard of the term "Berlin School" and know what it means. Even people that I have seen use the term use it for a lot of non-German spacemusic. Music that is much more widely seen as New Age or New Age Spacemusic.

Some of Tangerine Dream's early works may fall outside the "New Age" umbrella. But look at the majority of their output. Those early "iffy" albums are what? 3-4 albums? Their early sound was more akin to progressive rock. You can see a similar more "prog rock" sound in the early albums of other New Age artists like Gandalf, Yanni and others. But like Tangerine Dream, Vangelis, etc their sound "softened" in the 1980s with most of the other New Age Music.

Tangerine Dream's post 1978 output is the majority of their work. They were releasing music on New Age record labels. Many of their ex members went on to create New Age music and start New Age record labels. (re- Steve Jolliffe, Peter Baumann, Chris Franke, etc) Over the last 15 years it seems that Edgar's been taking a cue from other New Age artists with the addition of a "smooth jazzy" adult contemporary New Age sound.

I also want to add that New Age Music started in the late 1960s. Like many other genres, a name for such music isn't there at the very beginning. It takes time for genre terms to spread to the masses especially in the pre-internet days. It wasn't until the late 1970s and early 1980s that more of the general public began using the term. But many of the artists and followers of the music used it when the music was more "underground". I have spoken to many of the early synthesizer musicians. Tim Blake from Gong, who was putting on laser synth shows pre-Jarre, told me he and Steve Hillage always considered their music to be "New Age". That includes a song he told me that he wrote in 1969.

New Age is plastered all over the history of Tangerine Dream and it's various members. I won't even go into all the New Age Music awards, Emmy nominations, etc they've gotten over the years.

A very large bulk of Tangerine Dream fans and those who bought and enjoy their music know it (their music) as New Age. I think all these reasons are enough to list them as a New Age group as well as an "electronic" band. Dunk meister 00:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you say, but don't you think that labeling them "a New Age group" is a bit of an over-simplification. Personally I am uncomfortable assigning Tangerine Dream to any genre more specific than "electronic music". I think some of their albums are New Age, some are Space Music/Ambient, at least one is Prog Rock, the first 4 are considered seminal Krautrock albums, Zeit is a perfect example of Kosmiche, and some of their newer albums are Trance/Techno. How can you take a group with a catalog that diverse and pigeonhole them as New Age? I think it would be more appropriate to discuss the various genres of their work in the History section, rather than presenting them as representing one type of music, especially given how influential the band was to all of those genres. Kaldari 02:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that their sound has changed over the years. Their sound change echoed the overall changing sound in New Age music. Yes, I agree their early albums are more "Krautrock" in texture and sound.

How about putting something like "Tangerine Dream's sound has been a major force and influence in New Age Music over the years". I even think putting "TD are an electronic or synthesizer and new age group" is quite fitting. They've use electronics in most of their music. They also have released a lot of New Age albums. Many more NA albums than either Krautrock or those "trancey" remix cds.

I have listened to most everything they're released. Even the many cds their released and "redone" over the last 2-3 years. I have followed their sound since the late 1970s. I have also kept an eye and ear on other New Age artists and also countless other forms/styles/genres of electronic-based music. I am well aware of TD's shift in sound over the years.

Their "space/ambient" albums are perfect examples of the early New Age sound. That was before the music of artists like Tangerine Dream, Jarre, Vangelis and Klaus Schulze became more "watered down" versions of their mid 1970s works. In the late 1970s and in the 1980s a new breed of artists like Michael Garrison, Jonn Serrie, Constance Demby, etc started making their own "space/ambient" New Age Music. A large portion of New Age Music is "spacey" and most New Age contains a lot of "ambience" or ambient sounds and textures.

Not only is most of Tangerine Dream's music New Age but they helped shape the sound of New Age continously over the years. Their influence on other genres pretty music ended by the end of the 1970s. (imho) Dunk meister 03:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Your suggestion of "Tangerine Dream's sound has been a major force and influence in New Age Music over the years" sounds reasonable. It think it would also be fitting to mention Tangerine Dream's pivotal role in the development of Krautrock. You can't read anything about Krautrock without seeing prominent mention of Tangerine Dream. Indeed, Krautrocksampler has an entire chapter devoted to the band. Kaldari 03:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

How about" Tangerine Dream and their sound has been a major force and influence in New Age Music over the years". I agree that calling groups with a varied output a "newage" or whatever group may be a bit much even though New Age Music is an ever evolving genre. Sort of like the way "techno" has expanded over the years.

I also recognize their early work has contributions to "Krautrock" and to some degree "Prog-rock". The same goes for Can, Faust, etc. But TD's input in those areas was what? 2-3 albums? Sadly, TD's more experimental stage didn't last long but there were others who took the reigns in the experimental soundscapes field. Dunk meister 07:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Tangerine Dream's early 45 Ultima Thule and the first four "Pink Period" LPs are typically considered "Krautrock" (leaning towards the Kosmiche subgenre). Considering there are probably only 50 or so definitive Krautrock albums, that's not an insignificant contribution. What do you think about this wording:
"Due to their pioneering experimentation with electronic music, Tangerine Dream became a defining force in the evolution of such genres as Krautrock, New Age, and Space music."
Kaldari 23:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Tangerine Dream's early "Pink Years" albums are their least known. Most people and their fans known their late 1970s and 1980s output. I'm not saying their early output were Krautrock or were important but it's a very small percentage of the albums their released. The Krautrock mention would maybe fit better on the Krautrock page if you think they are part of the only 50 or so definitive albums. Possibly make mention to early TD's Krautrock importance in a seperate line?

The type of Space Music Tangerine Dream created is included in "New Age". It's one of or the largest type of New Age Music.

Tangerine Dream are best known for their dreamy, spacey atmospheric music that is known as New Age. Most of their ex members also went on to create important New Age albums and labels. I've give many examples already of this.

I think this statement is very accurate and represents the majority of their and their ex members output. That's unless you want to also mention all the soundtrack work too. How about: "Tangerine Dream, it's revolving members and the group's sound has been a major force and influence in New Age Music over the years" Dunk meister 05:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Tangerine Dream is already mentioned in half the paragraphs of the Krautrock article, in fact they are the first band mentioned. I don't think there is need to add more about them there. I disagree with your assessment of the notariety of Tangerine Dream's Pink albums. Among the new generation of post-rock fans (people who listen to bands like Tortoise and Godspeed You! Black Emperor), they are the best known. (And of course among Krautrock afficionados as well.) If you go to any trendy record store these days, you won't see copies of Melrose sitting around. Instead you'll see 180g vinyl reissues of the Pink Albums (sitting next to the Neu! and Faust reissues) or one of the many compilations of Tangerine Dream's early work that have been selling like hotcakes to twenty-something-year-old hipsters. Take a look at Pitchfork, for example: The only Tangerine Dream albums they have reviewed are: Electronic Meditation (which is quite a popular album these days despite the fact that it once languished in total obscurity), Alpha Centauri, Tangerine Dream: Journey Through a Burning Brain (Anthology) (which they pan except for the Pink Years material), and Tangerine Dream: The Analogue Space Years (1969-1973). Among critics and music historians, those albums are second only to the Virgin Period in importance, and these days I'd venture the Pink Period is catching up. Kaldari 06:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I agree about the importance and notoriety of the early Pink Years albums. I own a few of them myself. More can and probably should be added about their importance to Krautrock. I also feel that because of the bulk of their releases were "New Age Music" that a reference to that is needed. I don't think a reference to "space" is needed. How about something like ""Tangerine Dream, it's revolving members and the group's sound has been a major defining force and influence in Krautrock and New Age Music over the years"Dunk meister 21:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll accept that Space music is covered under New Age (although I'm sure others would object to this assertion). I think we're definitely getting close to something usable. My only remaining concern with your suggestion is that it has lots of redundancy and isn't that readable. "Tangerine Dream", "its revolving members", and "the group's sound" all seem redundant to me. Why not just say "Tangerine Dream"? "Tangerine Dream" encompasses the band members and the group's sound, does it not? Also "defining force" and "influence" are mostly redundant. I would prefer to use one or the other. Kaldari 21:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Tangerine Dream does encompass all of it's members past and present. I would go for "defining force" since they were one of the top 5 bands/artists who help shape the New Age sound (overall) over the years. Would "Tangerine Dream has been a defining force in Krautrock and New Age Music throughout the years" be better? Or maybe "Tangerine Dream has been a defining influencial force in Krautrock and New Age Music throughout the years" be ok? I think it looks and sounds better with those redundant terms are combined. Dunk meister 04:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

AS usual, it seems like TD's music can't be pegged into one hole. I think we need a paragraph on musical styles. Depending on the album and the track, there are elements of most major genres: space, krautrock, Berlin school, prog rock, jazz, opera and so forth. To me, that's one of the appeals: they are not limited to one style. And yes, New Age music (that's an article in need of some help). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the New Age Music section on Wikipedia needs some work. I can help with that if needed. New Age is one of those genres that has many influences. That's why we see some New Age artists or albums that have a "jazzy" feel to them or some of the early NA albums (re- Gandalf's 1981 album 'Journeys to an Imaginary Land) had a more "prog rock" sound go them. Costance Demby, Jonn Serrie and other NA artists take the "space" route on many of their albums. Those artists and many other NA artists have created "Celtic" influenced albums as well thus they have help define and expand NA music over the years.

As for getting into the seperate styles on seperate albums or tracks by Tangerine Dream I think such info would be best placed on the seperate pages for each album. If or when such pages exist or are created. Dunk meister 04:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

This may sound better as well ""Tangerine Dream has been a defining force in New Age Music throughout the years" followed by "Their early "Pink Years" albums were also pivotal in the development Krautrock" Dunk meister 03:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I switched it around to chronological order, since it seemed more logical. Hopefully the current wording will be something everyone can agree on. Kaldari 03:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, this wording is better suited. It doesn't just label the group, but shows their influence in a more moderate way. Good job ! --LimoWreck 12:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


Good job! I think it works. I'd also like to help out on the 'New Age Music' page in the future. It helps to show the connections, influences, etc (between artists/music & New Age Music) on the related artists' pages here. Next is Klaus Schulze whose modern classical, spacey, dreamy synthesizer music was also played a huge role in New Age Music's developement. Dunk meister 01:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, much better, and an improved article as a result. Well done everyone for being sensible about it. Naturenet | Talk 09:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Check out the new draft version of New Age music at Talk:New Age music. Looks really good to me. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that most people today would percieve Pink/Virgin era Tangerine Dream as "their parents new age music" or "soundtrack music". I mean electronic music now, is considered something which is lots of bells and whistles, as opposed to the early more "neo classical" stylings of KS, TD, etc.User: Aoecean


I believe that (imho) pigeonholing music and artists into various genres is necessary in order to inform and educate about music theory and playing instruments, for example, though I suppose that the music industry make use of it also for market analysis. --Avengers 05:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

What Polish film?

The article says about Froese, "late 1960s, when he scored an obscure Polish film." Are there any references on this? No results from Google (except for the wikipage), not to mention the official pages. AdSR 22:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The only film I kno' TD (or Froese) having scored as erly as in the late 60s is "Auf Scheißer schießt man nicht". I don't see any explicit notion about the country of origin, but since everyone involved appears to be German & the director's last name is "Pohland", I'd bet the "Polish" notion is a misunderstanding. Tropylium 11:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I think I actually got that from the official TD site (they had the title but I didn't include it because it seemed like too much detail for a film nobody had ever heard of). But that site looks to be down at the moment. Jerry Kindall 04:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Unreverting

84.223.152.238 recently reverted the article all the way back to an edition from April 15th, summarizing the edit as "removed edits of a mad isolationist man". WTF? Sorry, but I'm unreverting - I see no "mad isolationism" anywhere. The article was progressing well.

I also organized the article a bit further, but the "History" stretch could still use sum work. There's a few paragrafs that don't seem to fit in with the flo' - in particular, the one about lyrics. I mooved it down a bit, but it still sticks out a bit.

(BTW, it might be worth a mention that the discography update by 80.186.143.184 was actually me - wiki for sum reason didn't recognize me as beïng logged in.) Tropylium 14:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well done, friend, please go on.--Doktor Who 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Discography

Some thoughts:

  • It's probably time to consider forking the discography.
  • The dates need to be de-linked per the Manual of Style.
  • Vision Quest was never released as an (official) album.
  • The Keep being pulled has never been confirmed (yes, I know the legend). This would best be noted in an article on the album (and that would be an interesting one).
  • The lead-in on the discography says "excluding soundtracks", then the soundtracks are listed.
No, this was what it said in the lead-in of the "studio/live" subsection. It's not easy to see while reading, but "Soundtracks" is a separate sub-section. I'm putting the note back & adding hrs for clarity... Tropylium
  • Only one minor mention of the Tangerine Tree project.
  • No mention of bootlegs, fan releases or covers.

Comments? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

All excellent suggestions. Please feel free to be bold. Kaldari 17:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Sure. But with consensus and input from others. There is no hurry. --Gadget850 ( Ed)
I would especially love to see an article on The Keep. It's certainly one of the more interesting stories surrounding a TaDream album. Kaldari 19:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
That's going to be a long article. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Please support or oppose splitting the discography to Tangerine Dream discography:

  • support --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • support , I also suggest to keep the dates de-linked for the Manual of Style.--Doktor Who 01:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • support & 2nd keeping the dates de-linked. Tropylium

DONE --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


Style

A text list like it is now, or like Pink Floyd discography, Kylie Minogue discography or The Beatles discography. Also, see the nav box at the bottom of the PF and Batles pages. All the PF tracks are documented separately: category listing. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Before commenting on this, I'd have to kno' how much material you're really planning to include... The complete list is this big. Tropylium 13:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
This subject copied to Talk:Tangerine Dream discography --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The Keep

Since TK came up, I recommend it go to The Keep (album). There is already an article on the movie at The Keep and a proposal to move it to The Keep (film) and make The Keep a disambiguation page, or leave it for the book. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

done --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW: The Keep is now a disambiguation page. Another editor just added pages for the novel and the graphic novel, so there is a full suite of Keep related articles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Anonimous editors

Some anonimous editors are deleting/delisting albums from the discography, please explain, even with simple words such as "the x album is an unofficial release, and so on...." or I will ask to protect the page.--Doktor Who 10:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I've already reverted twice today. Since the 3RR rule as applying to vandalism is applied arbitrarily, I'm not reverting anymore today. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

We need to create Tangerine Dream discography. any suggestion?--Doktor Who
Moving to the subject above. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
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