Template talk:Talkheader

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Talkheader page.
Protected Template:Talkheader has been protected indefinitely. Use {{editprotected}} on this page to request an edit.
Articles for deletion
This page was previously nominated for deletion.
Please see prior discussion(s) before considering re-nomination:


  1. Aug 2005 – Aug 2006
  2. Aug 2006 – January 2007

Contents

[edit] Archiving of the old talk page contents and refactoring of previous discussions

I archived the talk page as there was a lull and it was 100+ kbs. Please feel free to look through the archives and refactor any old discussions you feel are not completed or need to be addressed. Quadzilla99 17:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is a refactoring of some former discussions done by myself User:Quadzilla99:

  • Basically the consensus is that the template should only be used on talk pages where it's guidelines have been violated and that it should not be added to any blank talk pages. Several editors expressed this very strongly and a clear majority of editors dislike the idea of arbitrarily adding it to talk pages. Additionally the now protected version of the template's page clearly states that in the description. See here and here.
  • Various editors differed on the things that should be included in the template such as the guidelines that should appear, the size of the text, and the overall size of the template. Here are some of the discussions: Colors, More Colors, Guidelines, Style and appearance, Format.
  • Several alternative versions were created such as smaller and longer versions. Universally these were all deleted and redirected to the talkheader. See here.

Feel free to refactor some your self or re-raise old issues.

Quadzilla99 18:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Quadzilla99. FYI, I did a small cleanup on the archive talk. Somehow, a piece of text from the template documentation got stuck in there. Not sure how that happened. I noticed because it was messing up the table-of-contents (I was comparing it to the pre-archive page). I removed the extra text. Also FYI, and FWIW, I find the easiest way to archive a talk page is to move the top-level talk page to a new subpage (e.g., move "Template talk:Talkheader" to "Template talk:Talkheader/Archive_1"). That leaves a redirect page behind at the top-level, which I replace with the talk archive box and any other appropriate templates. This moves the talk page history as well, which can be useful when researching past conversations. Cheers. —DragonHawk (talk) 04:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request: enable small version

I don't want to experiment with important template like this but can sb incorporate the following into the first line: {| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|yes|small|standard}}-talk". For desired effect, see Talk:New York City.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed change

A small little change, I just want to change the "Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages" to "Wikipedia:Signatures" to avoid the redirect that comes from the first one. Philip Gronowski Contribs 00:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should include code as well, here it be:
[[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|Please sign and date your posts]] → [[Wikipedia:Signatures|Please sign and date your posts]]

Philip Gronowski Contribs 00:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Conti|✉ 01:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Philip Gronowski Contribs 01:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The 'be welcoming' line sounds patronizing, in my opinion

What if someone just thinks 'who the fuck are you to tell me to be welcoming?' They'll get blocked from editing, I guess...--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 13:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess that could be seen as somewhat patronizing. On the other hand, Please do not bite the newcomers isn't exactly unpretentious, either. One way or the other, it's a key part of Wikipedia: Without being welcoming, you can't really be something that "anyone can edit". So I don't see much in the way of a better idea. Do you? —DragonHawk (talk) 04:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Small option

Wikipedia:Talk page templates#Small option discusses providing talk page templates with the option of writing them to the right with a smaller format. This would allow the talk page TOC to be more visible. Could we modify this template to include that option? It seemed to work okay in the sandbox. --Bejnar 19:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a pointer to the new code for the template. --Ligulem 00:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I frankly don't think that this template should be small. It should be used at the top of a talk page, not later down. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? GracenotesT § 02:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Having the small option does not automatically make the use of the banner small. It just gives that option. Even a small banner is still displayed where it is placed. If this banner is use in a small edition it can still be at the top of the discussion page. It will just be at the right like an infobox. --Bejnar 16:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
(a bit late) Yes, I am fully aware of that. I don't see the benefit of having the option, since I don't see the benefit of using it. But oh well. GracenotesT § 00:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I do think it would be nice to have the option of making this template small. However, simply throwing small-talk in the style list doesn't work for this template. This template uses three columns on the assumption that there is more horizontal space than vertical; switching to small-talk invalidates that assumption. Everything gets squished beyond readability. So I'm unsure where to begin. Perhaps if, in "small mode", this template was a single column, with rules (horizontal lines) or some other divider between "blocks"? —DragonHawk (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dangerous ambiguity

I occasionally see editors signing their additions to articles. This could be the result of them following directions: The accompanying template says, in an (unlabeled) demarcated area separate from the (unlabeled) editing-etiquette guidelines and the article-only ones,

* Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~).
* Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
* New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.

The last of those 3 is not unreasonable to construe as guidance global to WP (even tho experienced editors know the questions & answers belong on talk pages, not on articles, nor, really, in summaries). For instance,

Click here to start a new topic.

doesn't, until you try it out, even vaguely imply that it applies only to talk pages, rather than, say, starting a new section in the accompanying article. (And it inhibits trying it out, since it is far from obvious that that experiment would be easily reversible.) It is possible a few newcomer editors see those 3 unlabeled lines as the most general advice possible abt editing; WP could benefit by giving them a heading such as

About discussion (i.e., "Talk:...") pages

or

Instructions for adding to this discussion page

--Jerzy•t 20:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. I can see where you're coming from. It could be confusing. The current layout came about because of the length of the various text links, not because of logical grouping, but you wouldn't know that from looking at it. I suppose we could throw a "Talk page guidelines" heading at the top of the left column, but the "New to Wikipedia" wouldn't really belong to that, either. And then there's the four etiquette links in the middle column; they should belong to the talk page guidelines. Hmmmm. Anyone else have thoughts on this? —DragonHawk (talk) 04:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fix Article policies Links

Proposed draft of {{talkheader}}:

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Talkheader page.
Article policies

In the Article policies block, we should link to just Wikipedia:Attribution instead of Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, as these 2 policy's have combined onto Attribution. Gary van der Merwe (Talk) 11:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that should change. Was about to go and do it, when I realized that the link should be more descriptive than "attribution" -- once they get to the page, yes, it'll be clear what it's about, but should we have a more descriptive link? "Attribute your sources" comes to mind; one person mentioned "cite your sources" when I asked on IRC. Any thoughts? – Luna Santin (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why not just link to the WP:V and WP:NOR sections of Attribution? -- Ned Scott 23:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Because we want to make the banner smaller if possible.--Bejnar 00:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
That won't make the banner smaller unless the conduct list is shortened, or they are otherwise refactored. —Centrx→talk • 17:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Huh. Maybe "Attribute reliable sources" will work (since "attribute sources" sounds a bit too laconic, and reliable sounds like a good adjective, otherwise "cite reliable sources".) If this leaves space to add another policy below it, would there be some to to incorporate WP:NOT? GracenotesT § 02:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I've updated the draft to reflect the above (and included it in this section). • I'm not sure about adding WP:NOT. While that's one of the policies I cite the most, I'm not sure if it "fits" here. For one, it's not really an article policy, per se; it's a Wikipedia-wide policy. It doesn't seem to fit the "Do's and don't's" tone of the rest of this template (unless we just link it as Don't do this stuff :) ). There's also WP:BEANS to consider. Hmmmm. —DragonHawk (talk) 04:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I was actually coming here to fix the same problem but I see someone has already brought it up. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the word "attribute" isn't the most common word in the English language so it might sound a little awkward, especially to newcomers (it also has a second meaning, furthuring the confusion). Maybe use the word "cite", or perhaps try "Back up your statements with reliable sources"? Axem Titanium 04:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
No? Hmm... please agree with the text, then. This template will generate a big queue in the servers, must be used in over 50,000 articles. -- ReyBrujo 04:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. What does "please agree with the text" mean? Axem Titanium 03:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps ReyBrujo is trying to say "please agree on the proposed change [before making it, to avoid changing the template multiple times]". —Quarl (talk) 2007-03-10 11:03Z
I'd like to endorse the proposed "attribute reliable sources" text change. Dekimasuよ! 11:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Considering the policy is called Attribution, I think this is fine. If no-one else objects, I can implement the change. Harryboyles 13:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Seeing as no-one has objected with the proposed text, I have implemented the change in the template and it is now live. - Harryboyles 01:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emphasis on Wikilinks

Can we please bold the Click here to start a new topic text? // Laughing Man 21:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I would rather see the "Click here" be a new, fourth bullet. But there are warnings on the template page about how we should hesitate to change anything. Does anyone else have an opinion? CMummert · talk 13:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the {{editprotected}} request for now until the changes are agreed to. Personally, I would just change the line to be:
—Doug Bell talk 10:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be conceptually better to rearrange the lines to start with "New user", then "How to sign", and finally "Click here". That is the natural progression of information for a new user. CMummert · talk 11:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
See Template:Talkheader/Draft. CMummert · talk 11:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, WP:ILIKEIT. ;-) —Doug Bell talk 11:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I like the more logical progression of instruction. However, I object to removing the "Put new text under old text" instruction. They are not the same thing. The order of text (new comments last) applies both within existing threads (topic sections), as well for threads on the page. I'm going to put that back, pending a better idea. I do think that, if nothing else mattered, putting them on two different lines might be a good idea. But size does matter, when it comes to this template, if past discussions are anything to go by. —DragonHawk (talk) 17:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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