Talk:Takbir

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Contents 1 early discussions 2 Real Audio 3 Missing critical word 4 Iranian Flag 5 Although, there is no evidence for what? 6 NPOV Discussion 7 Akbar versus Azam 8 Definitions 9 Origin 10 What about other religions..

[edit] early discussions

Libyan anthem as the only one not to mention the country? The Star-Spangled Banner doesn't mention the U.S., at least not by name. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:57, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

Also true about the swedish anthem Du gamla, Du fria...

Nope. It's right there in the fourth verse. Nobody ever sings that many, however...

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Elative doesn't seem to mean what this article claims it means. Maybe whoever added it meant superlative? - Gwalla 18:16, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

No, it seems OK to me. From that article: form of an adjective or adverb that indicates a global maximum, e.g. "the most beautiful woman on earth". –Hajor

Ah, I missed that. Whoops! Thanks. - Gwalla 01:01, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

the article says correctly that it's an elative (not a comparative). Yet the translation "God is greater" suggests that the phrase is unfinished. It is not: the elative may be a comparative, if a comparandum follows. If none follows, it's simply the elative, meaning "very great". think the proper translation should just be "God is very great", or even "God is great" (I imagine that *"Allahu kabir" would be quite blasphemous compared to it, translating to something like "God is quite great", so there is really no other way of saying "God is great"). dab 11:04, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Real Audio

Can we get an open source sound clip for this? Real Audio sucks. Thanks, Mark Richards 21:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Missing critical word

The opening phrase "Allahu Akbar (Arabic: الله) is" seems to me to be missing the central word of the entire article -- namely the "Allahu" (in the Arabic)!? To clarify, shouldn't it say: "Allahu Akbar (Arabic: الله أَكْبَر) is" ?

Just for reference, it is " أَكْبَر " which is "akbar" and " الله " which is "Allah," not the reverse.

[edit] Iranian Flag

The Iranian flag also appears to have the phrase Allahu Akbar as well. The 'hu' part is a mix of the Arabic 'ha' which is on the flag and a part of the word "Allah" and the letter 'wow' which, like many vowels, is understood and omitted from regular Arabic script. OneGuy removed it from the article, but I am going to reinstate it as per my argument here. If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct me. mr100percent 3:23, 26 Feb 2005 (EST)

The same claim is made on our own Flag of Iran, on fotw.net, and in a "Flags of the world"-type book I just went downstairs to check. –Hajor 21:14, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The "u" vowel is the actually the nominative case vowel (i.e. i`rab), which often is not pronounced in modern pronunciations of Arabic, but is in this fixed phrase. AnonMoos 19:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Although, there is no evidence for what?

Someone added "Although, there is no evidence in either the authentic Quran and Hadith for this." to the end of "The actual title of this phrase is takbīr (تَكْبِير), while the phrase itself is "Allahu Akbar". In the Islamic world, instead of applause, often someone will yell "takbīr" and the crowd will respond "Allahu Akbar" in chorus."

I don't understand the purpose or what part of the preceeding sentence they are calling into question. Does the Quran not mention the word "takbir" or that the shout of "takbir" will be followed by "allahu akbar" instead of applause? The practice seems to be a contemporary practice or at least a practice that would not be prescribed in the Quran or Hadith. The test of authenticity of the practice is not the Quran, but whether or not it actually happens.

I'm removing the bothersome phrase as an ambiguous challenge.

JJLatWiki 16:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Discussion

This article merits some mention of the use of the term "Allau Akbar" by terrorists, particularly suicide bombers before they carry out their missions. While I agree that obviously most Muslims are law-abiding, peace loving people/citizens, there has been numerous documentation, including the videos of the Iraq beheadings where this phrase is shouted over and over again right before the terrorist acts are carried out. The article deserves a neutral, fact based statement to that effect. (This unsigned comment left by 68.194.26.4 (talk) 00:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I moved this latest addition to the talk page to the bottom, where new material is expected and easier to find.

Since this comment is from the user who slapped the POV tag on the page, I will assume this paragraph above is why he did so. I don't argree with his argument above - that connection doesn't belong in this entry in my opinion, and it *appears* to be pushing a anti-Muslim POV. Regardless of how one feels on that issue, the POV tag is not applicable here, and I'm removing it. --Krich (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you think so? Were they to be saying "thank God" or something else similar which is common to English speech I doubt the same point of view would arise with regard to the English phrase in an English language article. Likewise, this point of view would never arise in an Arabic language article because the incredibly broad commonality of the phrase is better known to Arabic speakers. As such, a statement such as you are suggesting is really not capeable of being neutral for the simple fact that making it implies a degree of significance which doesn't really exist. --66.216.160.9 11:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually if I could find the original citation I'd add a section about the phrase's perception in Western media. Very shortly after 9/11 a major United States network broadcast a documentary about terrorism where one scene featured a group of men in a mosque saying "Allahu akbar" while a voiceover spoke about Muslim terrorists. I actually wrote to the network to complain (I think it was NBC). Imagine the equivalent: an Arabic language documentary editorializing about Christian terrorism while showing a Pentecostal religious service as the congregation calls out, "Praise the Lord!" This sort of presentation is distorted and inflammatory. Durova 04:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I think something should be mentioned about the phrase stating that most westerners who know about the takbir know it only in the context of terrorism (suicide bombers saying it, its usage in militant execution videos, etc.) Then it should be noted right after that, that the phrase is so commonly used by Muslims, the vast majority of whom are peaceful, that any suggested connotations regarding terrorism are ridiculous. -- unsigned comment by anonymous IP 129.2.213.93 22:12, 16 September 2006

It's a traditional battle-cry, and its use can be perceived as positive or negative depending on whether you support or oppose the group using it as a battle-cry. We can clarify that it's a traditional battle-cry (used in many contexts where "Praise the Lord" would not normally be used by Christians), but I don't know that it really has any special association with terrorism. AnonMoos 14:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Akbar versus Azam

On the Talk:Bahá'u'lláh's family page (in the last section called Titles) we are having a fierce debate on the relative meanings of Ghusn-i-Azam versus Ghusn-i-Akbar. I'm claiming they mean essentially the same thing, or at least that Akbar means "Greatest" not "Greater" or even "Great" in this context. It seems your page here is also stating that Akbar means "Greatest" (the suprelative form) and not merely "Great-er" or "Great". If anyone want to come over to my page and make it clear, that would be great. Wjhonson 07:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions

I'm updating a few of the definitions. Here are sources. I used two dictionaries:

1. Dr. Rohi Baalbaki (1995). Al-Mawrid, 7th, DAR EL-ILM LILMALAYIN, Beirut. 
2. F. Steingass PhD, University of Munich (1970). Persian-English Dictionary, Including the Arabic words and phrases to be met with in literature.. Librairie Du Liban, Beirut. 

Here is the root word:

1. Kabír: Great, big, large, sizeable, bulky, huge, senior...
2. Kabír: Great, large, bulky, immense, heavy, serious, senior, elder...

And here is Akbar:

1. Akbar: Greater, bigger, larger, major, senior, superior.
2. Akbar: Greater, greatest.

Cuñado - Talk 19:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

Does this phrase come from Muhammad time? Is it enshrined in the Quran?

I think no.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.107.249.39 (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

According to my Qur'anic lexicon, both the word takbiir and forms of the associated "Stem II" finite verb ('kabbara / yukabbiru) are found in the Qur'an. AnonMoos 19:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about other religions..

What about other religion? what do they say? Do they have such phrases?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.107.249.39 (talk) 11:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

There are somewhat similar phrases in some cases (such as "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition", but none with the exact same range of use and connotations that I'm aware of, in Christianity at least. Medieval Christians would generally call out the name of their army's patron saint as a battle-cry (so Englishman would say "By St. George!", or something like that). AnonMoos