Talk:Taiwan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.

Additional information:
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
	This article is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

Taiwan was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 6 December 2006

	This article is part of WikiProject Taiwan, a project to improve all Taiwan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Taiwan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance for this Project's importance scale.

This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.

This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (add comments)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Taiwan article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (`~~~~`). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

Chronological Archives
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

[edit] Bias

"Some 1.3 million refugees from Mainland China, consisting mainly of soldiers, KMT party members, and most importantly the intellectual and business elites from the mainland, arrived in Taiwan around that time" Intelluectual? elites? I think we should change some words to make it less of an attack to the mainlanders when editing is allowed.

I'm not sure who wrote that, how about add the word, "many" before "intellectual and business elites from the mainland", since its obvious that not all of them came here —The preceding --65.88.88.155 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute tag

We need to do something about that to pass GA. --Ideogram 12:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The source [1] used in the disputed section is an essay written by the Chairman of "World United Formosan for Independence", a politically motivated organization. Using his essay is a violation of Wikipedia's policy on no original research. (to prevent people with personal theories attempting to use Wikipedia to draw attention to their ideas.) — Nrtm81 08:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This is silly. Someone who has strong knowledge of Taiwanese history, culture etc. should correct this citation problem and remove (or have an administrator remove) the neutrality tag. ~~ask123

[edit] Taiwanese people

Hi, there's a dispute here involving an anon who is trying to push the POV that the Han Chinese ethnicity does not include speakers of Wu (吳語), Min (閩語), Hakka (客家話) or Cantonese (粵語), with the conclusion being that the Hoklo and Hakka are not Han Chinese. The basis of his definition is genetic: in short, southerners with Baiyue (百越) admixture are not true Han Chinese.

In fact, the entire Taiwanese people article is extremely messy. After several POV-pushing attempts, it now appears to say the same thing three or four times from different angles. The article needs to be cleaned up or merged into Demographics of Taiwan.

Please come take a look if you're interested.

-- ran (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Your definition of ethnicity is ridiculous. You might as well as "Anglo-American-Canadian-Australian-New Zealand Ethnicity" or "European Romance Language Speakers Ethnicity". The cultures, languages in your so-called ethnicity are over 10. What in the world are you defining as ethnicity? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BlueRussian (talk • contribs) 14:01, 2007 February 22 (UTC)

[edit] GA failure

Why: factual accuracy dispute needs resolved, citation needed tag needs a ref, there should be no space btwn punctuation and refs, a 48K article needs more than 21 refs. Rlevse 20:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirection

I seriously think we should redirect this to Republic of China. In 80% of probably all cases involved, people writing "Taiwan" into Wikipedia's search want the damned government establishment on the island, not the geographical piece. --84.249.253.201 10:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Good god, NO. For one thing, finding out that Taiwan is the name of the island and the RofC is the political body is a learning experience. More importantly, Taiwan has a history that proceeds the RofC and (presumably) will continue to be an island long after the RofC stops existing; it has geography and climate and flora and fauna and other things that have nothing to do with the RofC. John Broughton | Talk 02:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the government of Taiwan (ROC) should be included under Taiwan. A lot of people don't know that the ROC is Taiwan's government, and it makes them think, at first glance, that Taiwan is part of China (PRC). You should try to address this problem. Contributer314 04:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree with you. We can consult the article Hong Kong and Macau which introduce their government at first line. We should point out the fact that Taiwan is currently ruled over by ROC instead of PRC. --Peachwa & Neversay(talk) 13:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

errr.... But we have pointed out the fact in the first line of this article. We need not include whole ROC content into this article. I think there is no necessity of emphasizing this issue. --Peachwa & Neversay(talk) 13:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography

I've added a "main" link to Geography of Taiwan. Would an editor more interested in the subject than me (I've just wandered in here because of a content dispute that I may or may not actually be helping with) please (a) move a lot of the information in the "Geography" section of this article to that separate article (while there is some overlap, there isn't that much); and (b) then sharply reduce the amount of text in this article pertaining to geography - the section should become just be a summary of what's in the main article about Taiwan's geography. Thanks! John Broughton | Talk 02:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Taiwan Province"

There has been a string of edits that repeatedly changes that name of "Taiwan" to "Taiwan Province". [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]

To prevent a edit war and a violation of 3RR, I'll hold off from reverting until a consensus is formed. However, the current version uses the name "Taiwan Province", despite differing consensus in the archives. I traced the original edit back to Dec. 8, by User: Nationalist [9]. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 06:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Quite obvious, it is POV pushing either from the PRC side claiming Taiwan as part of PRC or ROC loyalist claiming ROC still administer all of China and Taiwan. Either way, it is not neutral and the article should be intentionally vague given the subtle situation. Anyway, Nationalist is blocked due to 3RR.--Certified.Gangsta 07:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Systematic changes of this scale should be discussed prior to implementation. In general, the naming conventions suggest avoiding controversial terms when not directly addressing the controversy in question. In light of this, I am in favor of reverting the changes in question until a consensus can be reached. My 2 cents: In light of the fact that the provincial government pretty much exists in name only these days, coupled with the inevitable controversy over which "Taiwan Province" we're talking about (not to mention NPOV questions over endorsing the idea that there is a Taiwan Province), I think that including that particular term in every single reference to Taiwan is more trouble than its worth and runs dangrously close to soapboxing. Also on an unrelated note to User:Certified.Gangsta, please stop removing the WP:CHINA header from this talk page. As has been stressed many times, the presence of that header simply denotes that Taiwan is an issue somehow related to China in general and makes no implications whatsoever over whether said interest is legitimate/illegitimate... etc. -Loren 09:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.mac.gov.tw/english/english/anti/mofa940329e.htm

How does the provincial government pretty much exists in name only these days? Are you implying there is no controlling government? --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.153.10.138 (talk • contribs).06:32 Jan 24, 2007 EST

I now know what you meant by provincial government...... This should further add to the notion it should be Taiwan Province instead of just Taiwan. Since the point of PROVINCial government is to govern the PROVINCE. This should establish clear it was know as Taiwan Province in the past and since status quo has not changed because Taiwan has not formally declared independence, it should still be referred as Taiwan Province --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.153.10.138 (talk • contribs). 12:05 Jan 25, 2007 EST

I think it should be called Taiwan Province until Taiwan formally declares independence. Taiwan was originally recognized as China by the UN for years. Taiwan held one of the five permenant security council seats. This of course was later transferred to Beijing. But my point is at one time Taiwan is China and during those times, Taiwan was a province of China. It wasn't until recently when KMT lost power, talks of independence began to grow. But since most of the world does not recognize Taiwan as a country we shouldn't promote it as a Country. Here's a question, if Taiwan does declare independence, would Taiwan history include a Formally a Province of China section? --06:32 Jan 24, 2007 EST —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.153.10.138 (talk) 23:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Just wanted to make it clear that the above poster is inaccurate when talking about Taiwan, or more accurately Formosan Independence. Formosan independence has been around for centuries. It was not a recent development. In fact, just to prove its been around for over 40 years, just grab a free copy of the 1965 Formosa Betrayed by Kerr (http://www.romanization.com/books/formosabetrayed/index.html) and you'll see it even being mentioned and documented then. In addition, Formosa was in Nationalist powers for about 4 years after the Nationalists lost power in greater China, earlier it was run entirely by the Japanese. Before then only the North-West part of the Taiwan island was run by the Qing Dynasty. The majority of Taiwan, the Southern and Eastern coast was run by the natives. Before that there was the Dutch, Portuguese, and French colonies/bases than ran part of the island. --65.88.88.155 19:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to the above comments:

"Taiwan" refers to the geographical region. "Taiwan Province" can refer to one of many things depending upon who is using it. Using "Taiwan Province" to refer to the entire geographical area when not directly referring to the governmental division is non-neutral. The Taiwan article mentions the existence of the term and points to it's specific article. Independence doesn't even enter into the question.
The functional bodies of the provincial level of government were eliminated in 1997 (凍省) in favor of distributing powers formerly held by the provincial government to counties, provincial level cities, and the central government. Since then, 台灣省政府 exists only on paper.
If you are referring to the ROC government as a whole as the government of Taiwan Province, which you seem to be, might I suggest that you go over Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV. -Loren 17:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The above poster makes a number of statements such as "Taiwan was originally recognized as China by the UN for years. Taiwan held one of the five permenant security council seats ... " all of which confuse Taiwan with the Republic of China. The two are not the same. Taiwan was NEVER a member of the United Nations. The Republic of China was a member of the United Nations based on its recognized status as the legal government of China. When that fiction was finally seen through, of course the PRC was recognized as the legal government of China.

[edit] History of Taiwan

I think there is a name in Three kingdoms period of Taiwan -- YiZhou (Traditional Chinese: 夷州; Simplified Chinese: 夷州; Hanyu Pinyin: yizhou; Wade-Giles: ichou). Although there is an issue on whether the name have been referred to Taiwan, we should add this name to the prehistory section for fertilizing this article. Any suggestion?--Peachwa & Neversay(talk) 14:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan in Chinese logic was called Yizhou/Lioqio (spelling needs to be corrected) or various other names in Chinese history. YiZhou was called by the state of Wu during Three Kingdom period. Emperor Wu Da Di (the first Emperor of the state of Wu) did sent a fleet to the island and took back some hundreds of aborigines to China Mainland but Emperor Wu Da Di did not occupy Yizhou because of financial considerations and other reasons.

The following is about modern history of Taiwan.

http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-208684

(removed copyrighted material)

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-29995/Taiwan

(removed copyrighted material)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.174.138.240 (talk • contribs).

Do not post copyrighted material here. Linking to it is sufficient. --Ideogram 16:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stylistic Problems (language)

This article is very difficult and slow reading because it is not in a standard of English language style consistent with most Wikipedia articles. I think it would be very helpful for an editor with a sense of English style consistent with other articles to review and improve the flow of the sentences and to remove semantic redundancies and strange colloquial constructions.

Ryvr 00:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent events

The chinese anti-satellite missile test should be covered here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.114.242.30 (talk • contribs) 05:26, 22 January 2007.

Can you please elaborate on your reasoning for this, notably how it would be better suited for inclusion on this article rather than a dedicated article? -Loren 05:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that incident should be a separate article, since it doesn't only affect Taiwan. I'm not sure if an article already exists for the incident yet...but if there is, please link it. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 00:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I found a few articles [10] [11] [12] [13] concerning the security of Taiwan and the anti-satellite test. Seems to be enough info to warrant a separate page. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 01:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

See here for more articles. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 01:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Found the wiki page: 2007 Chinese anti-satellite missile test. Jumping cheese ^Cont@ct 06:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Navigational templates

I hate these things. They spam the reader with links in the remote hope that one of them might be interesting. This is hypertext, people, links belong in the text, in context. There is also a nice little search box on the left that people can type into. I have never used these navigational templates; if anyone else has, please speak up. --Ideogram 16:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Groups

The exclusion of immigrants and migrants in the ethnic groups makes this page factually incorrect. Racism has no place on Wikipedia!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taichung Ren (talk • contribs) 04:48, 10 February 2007.

Nor does soapboxing. Please write additions in a neutral tone with proper references. -Loren 04:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

There are now 13 native aboriginal tribes. I saw it on the official recognition on the news. Does anyone know the name of the 13th tribe? Hobowu 07:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwan and ROC articles

Hi, I've observed this page for a long time. The Taiwan and much of the Republic of China articles need to be merged. The Taiwan article has been systematically gutted of content and the subarticles have been renamed and the content moved to the Republic of China article. It has not been a coordinated attack per se, but it has been done by a group of people believing in basically the ideologies of Chinese nationalism (pro-PRC and some belief that China is inseparable) and pro-deep-Blue (possibly pro-authoritarianism/fascist, support unification of Taiwan with China and deny that there is any difference between Taiwan and China in language/culture/etc).

New organization of articles:

Something about end of Qing and Communists taking power in China could be an article. Most of the historical ROC things should go there.
Taiwan should describe the place commonly known as Taiwan include ECONOMY, POLITICS, etc. The history part should include at least a short background on the histories of each of the places that Taiwan is composed of today. This includes regions not historically part of Taiwan such as Quemoy, Matsu, where the Minan came from, where the Hakka came from, where the aboriginals came from, where the waisheng/Chinese KMT came from, etc. Today's Taiwan is the recognizable entity that everyone wants information on, but because it is the confluence of many histories, we can include article summaries and short bits on stuff that wasn't in Taiwan until later.
The ROC article needs to be broken up. Part goes in the new article on post-Qing-pre-Communist China and the rest goes in Taiwan. It can then become a disambiguation page.
This organization would be taken as standard. Other related articles would be organized around this new organization.

We have to face the facts. Taiwan is the common name yet there's very little information in this article. The official name is Republic of China or sometimes Republic of China (Taiwan) and whatever and should be properly noted. The division between the two names is a false division that takes the POV that either the ROC is the "real" government of all of China (and Mongolia, parts of India, etc.) or otherwise it is merely an illegal government in exile in Taiwan.

The reality is that everyone in Taiwan calls Taiwan Taiwan, though we also know we have this other official name of Republic of China. There is no exclusiveness between the two like Wikipedia attempts to make. No maps (except really old ones) show our official borders past Taiwan the island and Penghu, Quemoy, Matsu, though that is another odd assertion that the ROC article tries to make. The government is democratically elected and though not a perfect democracy, it is working and seen by everyone here as legitimate. Sure, there is no public formal declaration of independence, but that's only because China threatens to blow us up. I don't see how you can have your own army, your own economy, your own president, your own legislators, your own customs, your own taxes, your own passports and people will say that Taiwan not only is not a country but that it's a region and separate from ROC (which implies somehow that ROC controls a lot more).

Do you have an article that is geographic region of America and country America? No. If you people want to call Taiwan almost-a-country-but-not-recognized-by-most-other-countries, fine. But what is the deal with having two articles?-MarkJohanson 19:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China#Naming conventions. --Ideogram 11:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

You have already proposed this multiple times. We're all still here and this is nothing new so it's unlikely to happen. Let's keep all the discussion at Talk:Republic of China. --Jiang 02:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Having two articles for the same country is confusing and mis-leading. There is not a separate article called "America" that just decribes the geography of the US and a seperate article "United States of America" describing its government. In English and common use, the term "Taiwan" denotes the country in its entirety. In hundreds of conversation I have had with suppliers in China and Taiwan, I have never heard anyone refer to the "ROC" as such. Instead, BOTH my Chinese and Taiwanese contacts always refer to "Taiwan" . I recommend merging the articles and having a seperate section on the "ROC". Lucid-dream 19:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../t/a/i/Talk%7ETaiwan_0dfe.html"