Talk:Taiwan (disambiguation)

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English Formosa
Traditional 臺灣
Simplified 台湾
Pinyin Táiwān
Wade-Giles T'ai-wan
Bopomofo ㄊㄞˊㄨㄢˉ

[edit] Removals: Chinese Taipei; Taiwan, Province of China

Removed:

  • Taiwan, Province of China, according to the UN, see Republic of China
    • "Taiwan, Province of China" is a redirect. According to the UN, the Republic of China does not exist, so the link does not make sense.
  • the Taiwanese Authority, according to the People's Republic of China, see Chinese Taipei
    • "Chinese Taipei" is an international designation for Taiwan ROC. Directing people in search of "Taiwanese Authority" there is misleading and unhelpful. This is a disambiguation for the word "Taiwan", not "Taiwanese Authority".

--Jiang 02:40, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of any silliness at the UN, the Republic of China certainly does exist, they had elections rather recently, their government is involved in regular talks with the PRC and has a fairly well equipped defense force. Trying to pretend they don't exist is silliness at best. Arker 04:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Response:
    • They might want "Chinese Taipei", and all you need to is modify the description for it to "The interantional designation for the Republic of China (otherwise known as Taiwan): Chinese Taipei"
    • "Taiwan, Province of China" contains "Taiwan" most prominently, so I don't see why that isn't a valid place to point to. The term exists. If you don't like the link, put a "see 'redirect:destination' " instead.
    • 132.205.93.89 22:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I have difficulty understanding your response. What is "They might want...." supposed to mean? Who? "Chinese Taipei, the international designation for the Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan, used in deference to the People's Republic of China, where organizations defer to the PROC." is not proper disambiguation form. It does not show how "Chinese Taipei" can be confused with Taiwan.

"Taiwan, Province of China, the term used by the United Nations, in deference to the People's Republic of China, in reference to the Republic of China, commonly known as Taiwan, see Chinese Taipei." Again, "Chinese Taipei" is not supposed to be synonymous with "Taiwan, Province of China" and the article in questions explains how "Chinese Taipei" is used as a term, and does not explain the "Province of China" in its entirety (eg culture, geography, etc). --Jiang 00:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Response:
    • It's not my fault that Taiwan, Province of China redirects to Chinese Taipei. However, Taiwan, Province of China is mentioned in the Chinese Taipei article. Your complaint was that I placed a redirected link on the page, I solved that by placing the redirect target on the page. Now your complaint is that the target page is not the proper page to link to. The only solution to your problem is for you to place a template:rfd onto the Taiwan, Province of China redirect and delete it. Otherwise, it is a proper solution to place Taiwan, Province of China on the disambiguation page, because people could very easily be looking for that through "Taiwan".
    • Chinese Taipei is also a very conceiable destination for someone looking at "Taiwan", as it is the internationl name for Taiwan, therefore a proper disambiguation.
    • I see you deleted REpublic of Formosa before, but it's back by someone else, and you didn't delete it again. This is also a proper disambiguation.
    • A disambiguation page is a page that points to things that people might want to look at when they type in the ambiguous article (Taiwan). The three above are obviously things that people could be searching for when they type in Taiwan.
    • 132.205.45.110 18:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Since when have we linked redirects, or more specifically, link redirects and their destinations on a disambiguation page? Give an example. The whole purpose of a disambiguation page is defeated when there exists a redirect. If readers are already linked to their destination, then there is no disambiguation to be done!

While people going to "Chinese Taipei" may be more interested in what is covered in the "Taiwan" or "Republic of China" articles, the opposite is not true because going from general to specific is not handled by the disambiguation. It is handled by the article text. The "Chinese Taipei" article is a description of the term and an explanation of its uses. This makes it a subarticle of "Taiwan"/"Republic of China". Furthermore, this is not presented in disambiguation format. Will readers be looking solely for the information in "Chinese Taipei" and not in "Taiwan" be misdirected to the Taiwan article? I find it highly unlikely. --Jiang 22:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Response:
    • People can well infact be looking for the Taiwan, Province of China term. Since the redirects to Chinese Taipei, that is an appropriate target for disambiguation. The fact that "Taiwan, Province of China" contains the term "Taiwan" should obviously make it a proper subject for disambiguation.
    • Chinese Taipei could well be something they're looking for. "Taiwan" is easier to remember that "Chinese Taipei". If someone sees "Chinese Taipei", but is told that that's the "Taiwanese National Sports Team", they could well look for information in Wikipedia under Taiwan, but be looking for Chinese Taipei.
    • 132.205.45.148 17:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

You are begging the question. Let me try to explain again: "Taiwan, Province of China" is a redirect. Therefore, people searching for "Taiwan, Province of China" are already led to "Chinese Taipei". Therefore, stating that if you are looking for "Taiwan, Province of China", then you should go to "Chinese Taipei" is redundant and unncecessary. The software already does that. "Taiwan, Province of China" is not an article. I repeat: Since when have we linked redirects, or more specifically, link redirects and their destinations on a disambiguation page? Give me just one instance of this on wikipedia.

"Chinese Taipei" is already linked in the Taiwan article. People looking for information about the use of "Chinese Taipei" will find it there and can click on the linked text for detail. Disambiguation serves a single purpose: to let the reader choose among different pages that might reside under the same title. Will the "Chinese Taipei" article appropriately reside as "Taiwan"? Of course not! The whole article dwells on the term "Chinese Taipei", not "Taiwan". The article on "Chinese Taipei" is not a country/province article on Taiwan island. It is specific to its page title.

And please don't reformat my posts. They are following standard wikipedia talk page protocol. You indent, I don't since I started. --Jiang 18:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)


Then, why do you delete all references to Taiwan, Province of China from the disambiguation page? Redirects exist to allow people to get to the article that contains the information they're looking for on the proper page. Proper protocol would mean that you change references to redirects to point directly to the redirect target, to reduce load on the servers. So, why did you remove the link this time? "Taiwan, Province of China" redirects to "Chinese Taipei", so, obviously, since "Taiwan, Province of China" should properly be listed on the disambiguation page, the see Chinese Taipei would be there.
That Chinese Taipei is linked to from the Taiwan article is neither here nor there, since this is a dab page, and its links are independant of whatever is on the Taiwan article page. That people would look for Chinese Taipei as a meaning of Taiwan is entirely relevant to it being on the Taiwan dab page.
The whole article of "Chinese Taipei" dwells on why Taiwan is called Chinese Taipei, and not Taiwan or Republic of China, so it should appear on the Taiwan dab page because of that.
That Taiwan, Province of China redirects to Chinese Taipei, also means that Chinese Taipei should be on the dab page.
"Taiwan, Province of China" should appear on the dab page because it's Taiwan, Province of China, that much should be self-explanatory.
Redirects exist for a reason. But since they are redirects, are you going to delete all information about the redirected information because they are redirects?
I've listed this at WP:RFC because we are having a major disagreement on proper content.
You want a dab page that has a redirect target listed? Ironsides lists USS Constitution, the detination of the redirect Old Ironsides.
132.205.45.110 18:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Taiwan, Province of China is not referenced because no such article exists, and as long as we leave it as a redirect, we dont intend it to exist. Since when have we linked redirects, or more specifically, link redirects and their destinations on a disambiguation page? Ironside links USS Constitution, not Old Ironsides in the format *'''[[USS Constitution|The USS Constitution]]''', which was nicknamed '''"Old Ironsides"'''. This is proper disambiguation format since the destination article (and not the redirect) is linked and the alternate name directly reflects the disambiguation page title. Since when has the name "Taiwan" appeared in the two words "Chinese" and "Taipei"?

You say, "Redirects exist to allow people to get to the article that contains the information they're looking for on the proper page." So what? This is a disambiguation page, not a redirect. You say "Proper protocol would mean that you change references to redirects to point directly to the redirect target, to reduce load on the servers." You are wrong. There's nothing here asking us to reduce loads on the servers. And again, this is neither a redirect nor a redirect target. This is a disambiguation page. You ask "So, why did you remove the link this time?" I answer, because it is a redirect. You say, "'Taiwan, Province of China' redirects to 'Chinese Taipei', so, obviously, since 'Taiwan, Province of China' should properly be listed on the disambiguation page, the see Chinese Taipei would be there." Taiwan, Province of China should not be listed on this disambiguation page. See above.

You say, "That Chinese Taipei is linked to from the Taiwan article is neither here nor there, since this is a dab page, and its links are independant of whatever is on the Taiwan article page." I say, please type in grammatical sentences. The large proportion of sentences here that fail to follow the rules of English grammar or basic logic is forcing me to read over your postings several times to understand you. In this case, I don't understand you. You say, "That people would look for Chinese Taipei as a meaning of Taiwan is entirely relevant to it being on the Taiwan dab page." I say, I never claimed that people would "look for Chinese Taipei as a meaning of Taiwan". Chinese Taipei is not a "meaning of Taiwan". Instead, I said "The 'Chinese Taipei' article is a description of the term and an explanation of its uses. This makes it a subarticle of 'Taiwan"/"Republic of China'."

You say, "The whole article of "Chinese Taipei" dwells on why Taiwan is called Chinese Taipei, and not Taiwan or Republic of China, so it should appear on the Taiwan dab page because of that." I say, the logic doesn't follow. It is because of your premise that your conclusion is false. Dwelling on why Taiwan is called Chinese Taipei implies that the article is focused on "Chinese Taipei" as a term and is unsuitable as a replacement for the Taiwan article. Disambiguation serves a single purpose: to let the reader choose among different pages that might reside under the same title. Will the "Chinese Taipei" article appropriately reside as "Taiwan"? Of course not! The whole article dwells on the term "Chinese Taipei", not "Taiwan". The article on "Chinese Taipei" is not a country/province article on Taiwan island. It is specific to its page title.

"That Taiwan, Province of China redirects to Chinese Taipei, also means that Chinese Taipei should be on the dab page." But would Chinese Taipei satisfy the single purpose of disaambiguation in wikipedia? Perhaps the redirect is unsuitable. Perhaps we should extend the Chinese Taipei article to a general article on names and designation for Taiwan as a proposed about a year ago.

You say, "'Taiwan, Province of China' should appear on the dab page because it's Taiwan, Province of China, that much should be self-explanatory." I say, this doesn't settle the fact that you are linking a redirect and that Chinese Taipei is an unsuitable article for listing here.

You ask, "But since they are redirects, are you going to delete all information about the redirected information because they are redirects?" I answer, redirects contain no information. This instance contains only the code #REDIRECT[[Chinese Taipei]]. Did I delete the redirect? It still works! We are not aiming for inclusion of information here. We are trying to aid confused readers to the proper location to find this information. In doing this, we list different pages that might reside under the same title. If the page cannot properly reside under "Taiwan", then it is perhaps not a central article, but a periphery or side article that does not belong here.--Jiang 04:33, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please sign your comments

I would like to read this discussion and try to give a neutral opinion, but I can hardly even make out what the stances are because most remarks are unsigned. Jiang, I personally would not answer unsigned remarks. Also, : can be used for indentation when replying. Piet 15:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 3rd opinion on link to Taiwan, Province of China

I have read the above dispute and from studying the links to this page, I do not believe that a link to Taiwan, Province of China (nor to Chinese Taipei) would be helpful to those who stumble upon this page. JeremyStein 18:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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