Talk:Taig

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Tadhg doesn't mean "Irish". It is, in fact, a common Irish name. It is often used in the same sense as "Joe" (i.e. "the average Joe on the street"). "Tadhg na sráide" translates as "Tadhg of the street". It was from this that "Taig" came from. --Tadhg 02:04, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Williamite War

Do we know for sure that the use of the term Taig as an insult originates in the Williamite War in Ireland or is that an assumption based on the fact that two earliest examples included in the article are from that decade? That's a subtle difference, but I hope all agree it's a important one. If this is an assumption, let's change the wording. --House of Scandal 13:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't know for sure, but they are the earliest references that I know if. You don't find the term in contemporary English accounts in the 16th century, where the Gaelic Irish are called, the "mere Irish", the "wild Irish", the "barabarous Irish" "his Majesty's Irish enemies" etc. Nor have I come across it in accounts of of the wars of the 1640s, where the common term of abuse seems to be variations on "murderous Irish Papists". Cromwell, for instance called the defenders of Drogheda in 1649, "barbarous wretches who have imbued their hands in so much innocent blood".

Having said all that, I could not 100% say that "taig" was not used as a term of abuse on street level at these times. But the first time I have come across it is in the 1680s in the run up to the Williamite/Jacobite war. I would suggest that the term comes from a time when the Protestant settler community (which dated back to the early 1600s) had been in Ireland for quite a long time. They had to be quite familiar with the Irish speaking catholic population to know and mock their common first names. On top of that, I would suggest that term is a product of sectarian fear and animosity. While these had been there from the start of the Plantations of Ireland, they were greatly exacerbated by the events of the Irish Rebellion of 1641, where massacres were carried out by both sides. The political crisis of the 1680s was very much shaped by a fear on Protestants part that the newly re-armed Catholics were intending to destroy their community (see Early Modern Ireland 1536-1691. Look also at the full text of Lilliburlero to get an idea of Protestant fears. By the time John Dunton wrote his travel book in 1698, the term was obviously widespread, as he expected his audience in England to know what it meant. Another derogatory term in his book for the Irish Catholics is "Dear Johns", though I don't know where this originated.

So short answer, yes it is an assumption, but it's based on the best information I have to hand.

Jdorney 15:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Informative answer, thanks. I reworded slightly to reflect that. I also made sure to imply neither that rebel-types used it first as a self-identifier nor that it was applied to rebel-types first by opponents. It may have happened at the same time for all we know at this point -- certainly the written sources cited here for both are very close in date. Thanks. --House of Scandal 16:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Nice edit. Incidentally, the Irish Jacobites of the 1690s did not accept that they were rebels. They argued that they were supporting the true (Catholic) king and that it was the Protestants who were the "rebels" and "traitors" for opposing the rightful king in favour of a Protestant imposter - William of Orange.

Jdorney 19:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. Your point just made is valid and applies to many so-called "rebels" throughout human history. History, as we know, is written by the victors (until debunked).--House of Scandal 11:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• Regarding your early comments about Protestant fears, I have no doubt they were well-founded. Bloody Mary was known as such for a reason, and Ignatius of Loyola and his fellow didn't scrimpt on the cruelty either. "History has few good guys" (that's my original thought, you may quote me!)--House of Scandal 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes it was informed by the general Catholic persecution of Protestants in Europe such as the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1577, the events of the Thirty Years War and the more recent revocation of the Edict of Nantes and expulsion of the Huguenots from France in 1685. But in Ireland it had a much more specific context. Basically the Protestant settler community had got c.80-90% of the land in Ireland in the Act of Settlement 1652 at the Catholic's expense. They were frightened that with a Catholic in power, the Catholics would take the lands back and might just take a bloody revenge on the Protestants a la 1641.

Since we're getting philosophical here, I would add that this shows how hatred is usually born out of fear.

Jdorney 13:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)