Portal talk:Taiwan/Archive 3

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Still more mediation

I have archived the entire debate, as I felt it was not productive.

Let's focus on one issue. Chiang Kai-shek, you must not assume that Nrtm81 has pro-independence political motives. Assuming good faith is vital to Wikipedia and this process will fail without it. Ideogram 15:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Then tell him to not assume that I am nationalist, communist or whatever he thinks. It is clear from his comments that he is pro-independence minded. At first, he fooled us into believing he was NPOV, but like the saying goes, they always have some ulterior agenda behind their backs. -Chiang Kai-shek 15:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Wait, so if you support the intro stuff about Taiwan being a province under the ROC, then why are you so scared of naming it Taiwan Province, ROC then. What is so bad about that name? And you say it has political implications. Well, let me use your reasoning, it only occurs because you think of it that way and make it so. -Chiang Kai-shek 15:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-shek, if you cannot stop accusing Nrtm81 of having an ulterior agenda, I will have to close this mediation and let him seek a higher form of dispute resolution, most likely Arbitration Committee attention. Ideogram 15:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, Ideogram, I believe that you did not contribute too much to this debate. You only archived and put a CKS bashing comment about me. That doesn't help at all. On the other hand Halo did much much more and kept on replying immediately to our debate. -Chiang Kai-shek 15:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No personal attacks. This is your final warning. If you continue to violate fundamental Wikipedia policy I will close this mediation and recommend the case be taken up by the Arbitration Committee. Ideogram 15:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Right now I think that is for the best anyway. No agreement can be realised because you two keep assuming the other has a political agenda. The Halo (talk) 15:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

We're going to give both of you one more chance to debate if you can be civil and assume good faith. We don't have unlimited time to spend on this. Ideogram 15:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean we were at a break through. I recognized the compromise of having two portals one especially for Taiwan Province and the other for the Republic of China. Why can't he accept Taiwan Province, ROC. It is not having a political agenda if you're looking at the facts. Taiwan, ROC is fine as well. But if you look at Taiwan, the general name of Taiwan, it implies it as a country and it confuses people. But if you make it known that Taiwan is just a province part of the ROC, it just clears up everything. I really don't understand why he can't accept our compromises. For the whole time, he has been unwilling to budge. He wants Taiwan as the name no matter what. He has killed the suggestions/compromises made by Halo and I. -Chiang Kai-shek 15:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you even know anything about the ROC situation? and yes, tagging Portal:Taiwan with either "Province" or "Province, ROC" has a political agenda. Whereas Portal:Taiwan doesn't suggest anything. Only you are suggesting that it means seperation from ROC. I don't see it as seperation from ROC nor do I see it as in favor of PRC or independence. Such agendas are determined by the individual. — Nrtm81 15:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me state clearly what I won't compromise on: the portal name as "Portal:Taiwan". Since you do not accept this, there is no point in discussing further. I will ask the Arbitration Committee to finalize this dispute if the mediators are done with their work or recommend that path. And Chiang Kai-shek, enough of this ridiculous assumptions about political agenda. I apologize to you now for accusing you of nationalism and pushing a political agenda. I shouldn't have gone down that path.

Now I want to hear whether or not you will accept the portal name as Portal:Taiwan. Because there is nothing in the name to suggest a political agenda (Let's just leave that political agenda to the individual) The intro box already clearly states Taiwan is governed as Taiwan Province, ROC so there really is no point changing the portal name to one that will only cause complaints. If you do not accept the portal name as it is now, then our discussion has nowhere to go and it should be dealt with by the power-wielding Arbitration Committee. — Nrtm81 15:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, both of you have been unwilling to compromise with the other. We've had lots of compromises, but now have been right. Therefore, there must be something that is. The Halo (talk) 15:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So may i suggest this. Fist please take a look under geography in Portal:Browse. Now, We create Portal:ROC, and then place Portal:Taiwan in brackets next to it, much as Paris is next to France. This way no one would be confused about that Taiwan is part of ROC but it also allows the name Portal:Taiwan, which means that both problems regarding user confusion is solved. The Halo (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Complicated... Both PRC and ROC both claim the exact same thing. But both political entities rule different areas of China... unless you put in the Geography section "China (Hong Kong - Macau - Taiwan)" and have a "PRC - ROC" portal somewhere. Change the Portal:China to be geographic (similar to Portal:Taiwan) and have a seperate Portal:PRC that will match against Portal:ROC — Nrtm81 15:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you might have misunderstood. We don't do anything with Protal:China. We create a new portal, Portal:ROC, and place Taiwan next to that one, just so everyone knows that Portal:Taiwan is not about political stuff, it is just about the place. We would, if possible, do nothing to Portal:China. The Halo (talk) 15:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Halo, Let me make it clear what I was saying. The compromise I was offering as a possible solution was to make Portal:China and Portal:Taiwan a geographic entry (no national flags) because ROC and PRC both claim the same thing (sole legitimate government of China including Taiwan).

I assume that Chiang Kai-shek wanted Portal:Taiwan to be Portal:Republic of China because the Portal:China is redirected to Portal:People's Republic of China. If we had just a geographical portal for "China" and "Taiwan" it would avoid political dispute. While Portal:People's Republic of China and Portal:Republic of China will be the political entities so that all PRC-centric, ROC-centric topics can be written about. This also avoids the PRC vs. ROC problem about which government is truely the government of China (including Taiwan). — Nrtm81 15:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

So you put ROC (Taiwan)? That doesn't really make sense.

Yes, just like France. (Paris). I think this is done so everyone knows what paris they are talking about. By doing the same with ROC. (Taiwan), I don't think there would be confusion about wheather we are talking about Taiwan as a political place, or as a geographical place. If this idea is too conusing, then we'll try and think of something else. The Halo (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

We can do Republic of China on Taiwan. Taiwan, ROC or even Taiwan Island. But seriously, he has been unwilling to budge. What was the point of the mediation if you're just going to stick to your original plan of Portal:Taiwan. I thought we could compromise. It turns out you pointlessly wasted our time. -Chiang Kai-shek 15:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Halo's idea. BlueShirts 19:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Closing mediation

This mediation is now over. Ideogram 15:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I argue you two to take this to RfC, or Mediation Committe, or Arb Com. It is obvious that you need a more offical style of mediation. Thank you for your time. The Halo (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can I just seek the Aribitration Committee to finalize the solution? Personally I think they will settle on Portal:Taiwan because this portal name doesn't mention PRC, ROC, independence in the name. Also I don't think the RfC will do much good. Can RfC make the portal name binding and final? — Nrtm81 16:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoa there, there's too much tension here. I think it would be in everyone's best interest if instead of making attacks and threats of going to arbcom, instead we get a wider community consensus to see how the community feels the portal should be named. A discussion between two editors will probably not come to a compromise on this as it is such a heated issue, so I will go ahead and leave a message on the village pump and RFC. I think everyone should realize that if you are a resident of or have some sort of affiliation with the government of the Republic of China (or a nearby nation) that it is possible that you may have subconscious bias, even though you don't intend to. Will you both be fine with that? Arbitration should be the absolute last step, and this case would likely get refused there anyway as there are still more possibilities at dispute resolution. Cowman109^Talk 16:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking over, Cowman. I will reopen the case. Ideogram 16:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I already filed the request. What should I do now? — Nrtm81 17:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, let the request stay then and see where it goes. If it is accepted, then you'll be able to proceed from there, if not it looks like the discussion will continue. From what I've seen of RFARs, however, generally more attempts at dispute resolution make the request more likely to be accepted. Cowman109^Talk 17:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I like Halo's idea. Does the arbitration focus more on user conduct or actually the issue? BlueShirts 19:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I would like to retract the ArbCom request. I don't know if it's possible.

I've been looking around at Portal:Browse and Republic of China. Also I was directed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV which is enlightening. I was only trying to avoid the sensitive issue over ROC/PRC/Indepence concerning Taiwan by leaving it out of the portal name. Since ROC has a history on both mainland China and Taiwan, somehow it just seems like it would be confusing to mention the history of Taiwan prior to ROC rule since it might imply that is also the history of the ROC.

I think the ROC political content and general layout currently in Portal:Taiwan should be moved to a Portal:Republic of China as according to Wikipedia NPOV policy, that is the political term. Ironically, according to the policy, Portal:China is violating policy by redirecting to Portal:People's Republic of China as it says the word "China" should not be used synonymously with areas under the current administration of the PRC.

I think the solution would be to list in the Geography section of Portal:Browse the following format: People's Republic of China (Hong Kong) · Republic of China (Taiwan) This will satisfy both User:Chiang Kai-shek and myself in regards to Portal names. Move ROC content including 1911-1949 on mainland China and 1945-present Taiwan over to Portal:Republic of China and leave behind the history, culture, etc prior to 1945 ROC rule at Portal:Taiwan — Nrtm81 20:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that Chiang Kai-shek would not allow the portal name Portal:Taiwan and insisted on inserting (ROC) in the portal name. This way Portal:Taiwan can be retained as there will be a Portal:Republic of China. In this way Taiwan will be to the ROC as Hong Kong is to the PRC. — Nrtm81 20:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to bed. I'll check this page again in around six hours from now. Hopefully we'll all be in agreement with this solution. ;-) — Nrtm81 20:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about, having them in parenthesis or whatever. It seems quite strange. Taiwan itself is a sensitive term to use by itself. Is it a country? Is it a province? What is it? I have accepted many terms: Taiwan Island; Taiwan Province, ROC; Taiwan, ROC; Free Area of the Republic of China. The whole time you wished to just have the name Taiwan. Then if that was your desire, what's the point of mediation? Please look at the arbitration page for more information. -Chiang Kai-shek 00:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You suggested Portal:Taiwan, Republic of China. What I want is to keep Taiwan and ROC seperate. I can see why you thought it had an independence theme because the portal is laid out as if it's about a country. We can just move the ROC political stuff over to Portal:Republic of China and leave Portal:Taiwan with the pre-ROC history. Do you see what I'm getting at? — Nrtm81 07:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How about calling this portal "Portal:Taiwan (island)"? Putting the "island" in parentheses makes it clear that it's just a clarification. We can decide whether to have two separate portals as a separate point. Ideogram 08:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't read that properly, if it's "Taiwan (island)" I think it would be acceptable since most articles use the parenthesis for disambiguation and it won't suggest that it's only the island of Taiwan but other islands that are related to its history prior to the ROC era. I just didn't want the tags "ROC" or "Province" to the portal name. Nice suggestion Ideogram. I'll accept that compromise. — Nrtm81 09:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, check Portal:Republic of China. I've got a bad feeling all this arguing went on due to misunderstanding! I'm trying to show you that ROC portal will be just that, about the ROC, the state with national flag, its politics, law, history (mainland China & Taiwan).

Then we leave Taiwan portal to be about the island, it's history, inhabitants, etc and will link back to ROC portal for the actual "Taiwan" which is actually just an informal term which refers to ROC. I've added this informal term in the ROC info box.

By the way Ideogram, there's not much point to add Island to the Taiwan portal name because the Pescadores islands are also part of Taiwan island or at least it is mentioned together with "Formosa" such as Treaty of Shimonoseki when Qing China ceded the islands to Japan. I'm really hoping Chiang Kai-shek will understand this situation. I have never put a PRC flag or ROC flag or Taiwan independence flag on the Taiwan portal. But the problem grew to this stage because there was only one portal for Taiwan and ROC. — Nrtm81 09:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Also how about we change Taiwan portal theme color to orange? Because this color is abundant on the island:

Grand Hotel Taipei

Songshan Airport

Taipei Main Station

Longshan Temple

Although I chose green for an island color, we can avoid any misinterpretation of it being related to the independence movement by using an orange color. — Nrtm81 09:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

See look, Nrtm81 is again shooting down another compromise. You said you wanted only exclusive Taiwan history. Yes, the Penghu Islands are part of Taiwan. It is part of Taiwan Province, not "Taiwan." You can choose whether or not you want to put the Penghu. If you want to, then use Taiwan Province, ROC. But if you don't want to, then Taiwan Island (no parenthesis needed). It is a geography portal and it will quell fears of politicizing the portal if you just put Island. No need for () -Chiang Kai-shek 15:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, Chiang Kai-shek you find "Portal:Taiwan (island)" unacceptable? Ideogram 17:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I find it unacceptable. It should be Taiwan Island. There is no need for the parenthesis. Nrtm81 also finds that unacceptable as he just wants "Taiwan." -Chiang Kai-shek 02:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nrtm81 has accepted it. Won't you reconsider? Ideogram 05:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Ideogram, is there a way to get more Wikipedian people's input? Personally I only want this portal to be Portal:Taiwan. Why do we have to add Island, Province, ROC, etc to the portal name? Making it so complicated. The info box states clearly it's under ROC jurisdiction. Why make it so political? — Nrtm81 08:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

We have already posted a Wikiquette alert and asked at the Village pump. The only thing left is to file an RFC. Ideogram 08:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you go ahead and file the RFC now. Ideogram 09:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

What is so bad about addin island. How is that political? By adding island, we are assuring that it's not political. "Taiwan" itself is a political term. By adding Island without anything enclosing it is the best way. Please accept. -Chiang Kai-shek 08:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-shek, it's two characters. It's only two characters. Why are you so opposed? Don't you understand that on Wikipedia you can't always have your own way? Even if you think its best you have to be willing to compromise. Ideogram 08:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion Taiwan Island is better than Taiwan (Island), lest people think about Taiwan (country). BlueShirts 08:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we seriously need User:Instantnood and User:Captain0 to give their opinion and view on this. This is getting way too complicated. Despite creating an ROC portal, there's definitely too many overlaps since the modern-day ROC is comprised mostly of Taiwan. Yet, using ROC as a portal name is ambiguous since as Captain0 pointed out, ROC is not a firm geographic concept. To call it a state would be to go against ROC's official stance that it's a rival government to PRC (ROC since 1991 no longer considered the PRC government illegal) and has since promoted the idea of "one china, two areas"... — Nrtm81 10:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, sorry I wasn't here yesterday, my real life was very busy. I'm glad to see that you're still trying to resolve this between yourselves, and that it is also being brought to the attention of the comunity. However, I don't think that either of you will ever be truly happy with the outcome of this, seeing as what one wants is opposed by the other based on the political implications of Taiwan. Therefore, I think it is important to get as close to what you both want as possible, which I think is Portal:Taiwan Island, or Portal:Taiwan (Island). In my opinion, whichever way doesn't matter, as the brackets only serve to change the way you'd say it out loud (Taiwan, Island instead of Taiwan Island). So, for the sake of clarity, it might help if Chiang and Nrtm81 (BlueShirts' preference is directly above this) both stated which one they prefer and way, and then mabe we can work from there. The Halo (talk) 10:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that the Wikipedia article for Taiwan (NPOV) is Taiwan and not Taiwan Island? (redirects to Taiwan) If Taiwan is so politically charged, why isn't there a distinction made in the article's name to Taiwan Island? The introduction says it's an island and governed by ROC. So why is this portal such an issue? the info box says the same. Taiwan is an island, it's governed by ROC... — Nrtm81 10:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll let Chiang answer that one. However, you have to agree that it is an issue, wheather you like it or not, and we have to try and reach some compromise. In short, are you saying that you are opposed to both Taiwan Island, and Taiwan (Island)? The Halo (talk) 10:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I was really considering it because we're deadlocked over the name, but seriously, it doesn't make much sense, why isn't Corsica named Corsica Island? Why isn't the article for Taiwan called Taiwan Island? I really don't understand why Chiang Kai-shek is making this such an issue. All that really matters according to him is that it be made known that Taiwan is part of ROC. And in that case, the intro box clearly states this fact.

The term "Taiwan" is used to informally refer to the ROC only because it constitutes what? around 90% of the land currently controlled by the ROC (excluding mainland China)? Taiwan is not a country. Saying I'm Taiwanese (From Taiwan) isn't that different from saying I'm Cantonese (From Canton). In the political sense, Asian Development Bank, ROC is listed as Taipei, China, there's no mention of Taiwan being Taiwan (country), and according to The Rise of Modern China (1995) by Hsü, 90% of ROC population opposes independence. While independence supports numbered 5-12%. Though this estimate may have changed since it's not up-to-date information. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the majority still oppose independence. But anyway, the political connotation of independence is not implied. Furthermore, Taiwan is a part of ROC is clearly stated in the introduction of the portal. — Nrtm81 11:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, even Chinese in PRC know Taiwan is ruled by ROC. They may object and voice discontent and their opinion that it should be ruled by PRC. But that doesn't erase the fact that Taiwan is ruled by ROC. Maybe some people who don't know much about Asia and it's geography will mistake Taiwan being a country but if they came to this portal they'd see in the intro "oh, governed by ROC? what's that about?" *click link to ROC article* and if they're still interested in Taiwan, they can read up on many things about Taiwan from the portal. But at least they will know Taiwan is ruled by ROC. OK, I'll be back tomorrow. — Nrtm81 11:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't see why this is a issue anymore. With Portal:ROC created and being made into a well rounded portal, any user will see that Portal:Taiwan isn't about the ROC, or Taiwan as a country, but about the island. Is there any problem with keeping it the way it is now, and see what happens in the future (ie, lots of confused users would mean we should change Portal:Taiwan's name, no confused users means that nothing else needs to be done). The Halo (talk) 11:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The China-Taiwan issue is extremely complex. The average person on the street would have difficulty grasping this hard concept. Therfore, we need to ensure as a preventive measure to counter any speculation or confusion. Taiwan Island makes sure that it is in fact not a separate country. You wouldn't say Hawaii Island, because its status is determined and is no doubt a state of the USA. You would just say Hawaii. However, since Taiwan is a sensitive term and issue, it is better ot use Taiwan Island to make sure there is no confusion. Nrtm81 doesn't want to compromise. Stop accusing me of not compromising. I have thought of many ideas and compromises. However, Nrtm81 shoots every one of them down. The whole time, he just wanted the Portal:Taiwan. He still won't relent. Then tell me what is the point of asking for mediation? It is pointless. And to make it clear, I will support Taiwan Province, Republic of China; Taiwan, Republic of China; Taiwan Island. Taiwan Province will sound better because therefore it will include Penghu as it is administered under Taiwan Province. Taiwan Island would still be okay but not 100% correct if you were to incorporate Penghu. -Chiang Kai-shek 14:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)