Talk:Tadeusz Kantor

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"Although the family name "Kantor" is shared in Poland by Jews and Gentiles alike, recent research by members of the "Crikoteka" in Kraków has established that the Kantors in Wielopole were exclusively Christian.[17] In addition, it is a well-known fact that Kantor's father belonged to a right-wing nationalistic party with such pronounced anti-Semitic policies that it demanded from its members a baptism certificate." [1]

Theaterlexikon. Autoren, Regisseure, Schauspieler, Dramaturgen, Bühnenbildner, Kritiker. Herausgegeben von C. Bernd Sucher. Von Christine Dösel, Jean-Claude Kuner und C. Bernd Sucher unter Mitarbeit von Marietta Piekenbrock, Robert K. Brown und Katrin Zipse. München: Deutsche Taschenbuch Verlag, 1995, [Lemma: Kantor, Tadeusz], p. 356: "Sein Vater war Jude, seine Mutter Katholikin." As this is an ethnic not a religious categorisation, Jewish father suffices.--20.138.246.89 09:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this suppose to act like a separate source? [2] Read superscript 15. This is the exact source the link is saying "assumed" Kantor's father was Jewish. 141.211.251.74 16:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. This is a standard and authoritative reference work that states explicitly that his father was Jewish, so is to be preferred to some random web site. Please do not violate WP:RS.--20.138.246.89 17:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

So, wait. The reference work on TALK:Ralph Benatzky is NOT authoritative enough to merit Benatzky's categorisation as a gentile against *some random website* putting him indirectly in a list of Jews, but a German theater lexicon on Tadeusz Kantor is enough to merit him as a Jew, even though it explicitly states elsewhere (a documented work with footnotes to the research on Kantor's ancestry and his father's political stance) that this in in error? Any reasons for this? 141.211.120.109 22:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

I am here in response to a plea on Wikipedia:Third opinion.

1. Please be careful throwing around accusations of vandalism. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith. What I see in the edit history are good-faith edits by editors who disagree on the interpretation of a source.
2. The recent edit war appears to center around whether Kantor was born into a Jewish-Polish family. The cited source makes an excellent case that Kantor's father wasn't Jewish at all, in spite of possibly being regarded that way by some intellectual circles in Poland and Germany. There is certainly no doubt that the family was Polish, however.
3. Therefore, the article should omit reference to Jewish and just leave "born into a Polish family." I am skeptical, from reading both this article and the source document, that the Jewish-ness of Kantor's father or family is in any way relevant to this article. What is more relevant are evidences of influence on Kantor's work. Rather than settling it with an assertion that Kantor's family was Jewish, maybe a short paragraph is in order that says something about Jewish influences, even though Kantor's final allegiance was to Catholicism.
4. Finally, be mindful of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight. A paragraph about Jewish influence should be short if it isn't the major thrust of this article.
5. Also keep in mind that I came here with no knowledge or point of view about this subject — which is what one wants if an outside third opinion is requested. I wrote the above after looking at the edit history and scanning the referenced source, but don't assume any expertise on my part. -Amatulic 18:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I respect the above opinion. I would, however, argue that it comes down to an assessment of relative reliability of sources. I would also be grateful for clarification of the suggestion that the information is not relevant to the article. Could you please also look at Talk:Ralph Benatzky.--20.138.246.89 10:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I only said I'm "skeptical" that Kantor's parentage has relevance — remember, I came in with zero knowledge or opinion on the subect. My reasoning is that because even the cited source appears uncertain about Kantor's Jewish parentage based on conflicting reports cited therein. Therefore the Jewish-ness of Kantor's parents likely isn't worth mentioning. Certainly, if Kantor himself was influenced by exposure to Judaism, that is worth mentioning, but I can't see evidence that this influence came from his immediate family, based on the source.

Mind you, I never heard of this guy before I saw the article, so I have no idea if the possibility his father was Jewish is important. However, if the editors here feel it matters, I still think it's wrong to assert as fact that he came from a "Jewish-Polish" household; rather, it seems more correct to say he came from a Polish household that many of his contemporaries assumed to have included a Jewish father, but this is historically uncertain. -Amatulic 21:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts without explanation

Now, we're heading into the territory of reverting edits without an ounce of explanation. We have a perfectly reliable source stating that neither of Kantor's parents were Jewish. Furthermore, in no other academically published resource focusing on Kantor's life and work does it stress that his family was Jewish. However, in some places, his relationship to Jews is important. When this bit was added, the edit was reverted to "born in a Polish-Jewish family" which is already determined to be a false assumption. Unless there is evidence present to counter the facts that Kantor's father was from a lineage of Christians and that he was a member of an anti-semitic right-wing political party, it could be considered vandalism to ignore these facts. I will continue to revert until this is addressed. 141.211.216.33 04:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It is really funny or stupid (it depends on point of view) to make an argument like that: "he (father) was a member of an anti-semitic right-wing political party". For example, Stanisław Stroński, a leader of the National Democracy party, known as anti-Semitic "Endecja", was a Polish Jew. Mibelz 15 November 2006

[edit] A specific symptom of Polish anti-Semitism

Polish nationalists create lists of Polish Jews (sometimes false) which include, first of all, politicians and social activists. However, there is ONE specific exception to this general principle: prominent Polish cultural figures (poets, writers, artists, musicians, etc.) who were Jewish (or Jewish ancestry), such as Adam Mickiewicz, Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, Stanisław Lem, Teodor Parnicki, Tadeusz Kantor, Jan Kiepura, Henryk Wieniawski, and many others. Polish “true patriots” do not agree with these facts, so they permanently remove them from the Category: Polish Jews.

Dr Mibelz 15:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As of now, there are no places debating that Stanislaw Lem, Henryk Wieniawski, and Teodor Parnicki (to my knowledge) have a recent Jewish ancestor. That is why they remain in the category (or should be added if they aren't). If you can find a place that says Jan Kiepura is Jewish, then fine. But you cannot pick and choose what is most favorable to believe on the remainder. Some journalist's article in a Jewish magazine is not more reliable than a textual biography on that person. Jewish magazines, like any other magazines, love to sensationalize things without doing much hardcore research. That's why you get articles saying Alan Turing, Walter Gropius, etc.. are Jewish. Lately there are even publications devoted to showing who was mistaken as being Jewish, as this "hype" of trying to prove controversy-inducing figures (Adam Mickiewicz, Richard Wagner, Adolf Hitler) had Jewish ancestors gets carried away. It's hard for me to believe you still think Tadeusz Kantor is Jewish though, even after all that was said. 141.211.195.186 23:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Calling Kantor's father anti-Semetic needs to be defended with a reference. According to the book 'Encounters with Kantor' by Krzysztof Miklaszewski, one of his actors, Kantor's father was sent to Auschwitz on December 8th 1944, where he later died.

The fact that Kantor's father was sent to Auschwitz does not confirm that he was Jewish. An estimated 1.9 million non-Jewish Poles were exterminated during the Holocaust.

However, Miklaszewski's book 'Encounters with Kantor' does state that Kantor returned to Wielopole for a time during the war to hide out because he was of "Jewish extraction."

That seems to be a strange wording in the book. It says Kantor spend his time like most Poles of Jewish extraction, but it seems to be making the statement Kantor spends his time like any Polish Jew. In Wieslaw Borowski's book, it makes it clear that the Nazis were after Kantor and his father for their actions within Polish intelligentsia. Kantor's father, Marian, was a high-ranking member of the anti-semitic Endecja, that although that would seem to abide with Nazi ideology, it was also heavily nationalistic and anti-German. LeszekB 08:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)