Talk:Tabriz rug

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Please note that Tabriz is Azerbaijani city and its main inhabitants have been Azerbaijanis. Its culutre and carpets have been and are part of the Azerbaijani civilization, culture and history. Azerbaijanis have nothing to do with Persians and Persia, other than the fact that it has been divided into two parts: Iranian Azerbaijan and Rusian Azerbaijan. The Iranian Azerbaijan with its capital Tarbiz is still under the persian occupation. The Russian Azerbaijan has become independent in 1991. The iranian Azerbaijan will soon gain its independence as well. I just want to say that as Azerbaijani I have nothing to do with persian, no relation netiher by ethnicity, nor by religion. We are different civilizations, different people and different history. Please, don't call Tabriz rug as Persian rug. It hurts. --68.49.90.60 03:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Khosrov, be warned. YOu are vandalizing this web site. THere is not such a thing as iran. There is a Islamic Republic of Iran. Tabriz carpet is Azerbaijani carpet as most of the people in Tabriz are Azerbaijanis and they are the ones who make these carpets. Azerbaijanis are not Persians. See Wikipedia Azerbaijani section for more information. If you repeat your vandalism, I will call for arbitration and they will define who is right. --Rembranth 17:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

 :: Persian rug is a geographical term, meaning rugs from Iran which was formorely Persia. Do not mix geographics with ethnicity. Also of course there is an Iran. The form of the government is Islamic Republic. That is the name of the government. The country name is iran. Just like there is say a democratic republic of South Africa..

Even if you object to the term Persian, it should be changed to Iranian and not Azerbaijani! This rug became famous long before any country called Azerbaijan existed. And the area that it is produced in is part of Iran and not the country called Azerbaijan therefore the flag of Azerbaijan is completely wrong for this article. There can be a debate on Persian vs Iranian but that is all.Gol 00:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


also, it should be noted that what we now today call north azerbaijan is infact not azerbaijan at all, it is aran. the name azerbaijan was put on the region by nationalists so that they could claim iran's land as well. there are numerous documents from 1918 protesting changing the name from aran to azerbaijan.Khosrow II 01:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Khosrov and Gol, what you say and argue are nothing more but arguments of persian schauvinists. Of course there is Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis are Tukic origin people who have serveral times defetaed Persia, persian and Iran and ruled it for over 1000 years. Please, go and learn your geography as well. The region is called Iran and iran does not represent nationality. The carpets and rugs of Tabriz as they are made by Azerbaijanis are Azerbaijani carpets and they shoudl be known so. You have abducted Tabrixz carpets when Azerbaijan is divided by Russa and Persia.Northern Azerbaijan is independent and Southern Azerbaijan will become independent soon.

But as to the name of the carpets, the carpets made by Azerbaijanis needs to be called Azerbaijani. I am not persian, neither iranaian. I am Azerbaijani and proud of this.I have nothing to do with persia and persians. My land, my culture, my language, my civilization are totally different than persian ones. Please, don't confuse. --Rembranth 14:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Also please don't distort governance and existence facts about Islamic Republic of Iran. There is no Iran, there is Islamic Republic of Iran and Azerbaijan is the part of the Islamic Republic of Iran, not the Iran. Please, learn your history. You may or may not like this regime, but this is a fact and you have to accept it. Please, avoit mixing this with your natinoalistic feelings about Iran. --Rembranth 14:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you take your own advice and do a little research yourself on your peoples history and culture, you will be shocked, just as many north azeri's are when they find out the truth and that what they are being taught are lies. anyway, if you keep going like this you probably wont be here long anyway, i suggest you read about wiki rules first.Khosrow II 15:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tabriz is an Iranian (Persian) city

Tabriz is and has been a part of Iran (Persia) for millenia. Therefore the carpets from there is known simply as persian rug along with carpets from other parts of Iran/persia. The fact that it is called "perisan" is simply a historical relic from the time when Iran was known as persia in the west. One could argue that it sould be called Iranian rug, but defenitely not azeri, since the city where it is made is not a part of the recently founded republic of Azerbaijan. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a propaganda forum for pan-turkists who predict independence or other political occurrances for Iranian(persian) provinces. Please stop your POV. This is not a political discussion forum.


Let me make several things clear to Rembranth, who seems to be misinformed about a lot of things:
  • He says that Iran does not exist, and that the name of the country is the Islamic Republic of Iran. "Islamic Republic of Iran" is the official name, just as the official name of Pakistan is also "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", and the same with many other muslim nations. Also, the official name of north Azerbaijan is "The Republic of Azerbaijan". These are just official names, yet still we put Pakistan, Iran, and Azerbaijan, because everyone knows already knows. Other examples would be "Peoples Republic of China", which we just call China, "Democratic Republic of North Korea", which we just call North Korea, and many more....
  • Also, let me tell you something about your own peoples history. DNA testing has proven that Azeri's are infact an Iranic people and not a Turkic people. Ancient historical records have proven that the Azeri's spoke an Iranic langauge (more specifically a Persian dialect). Historical facts prove that the Oghuz Turks Turkified the regions of Anatolia and the Caucasus. DNA testing has also shown that there is almost no Turkic gene in both Turks from Turkey and Azerbaijan. The culture of Azeri's is Iranian.
  • The Safavids you are referring to, were an indeginous family, who followed a Persian who started the sect of Shia'ism. They are thought to be from Iranian Kurdistan, who later moved to Atropotane, and were later Turkified with the coming of the Oghuz invasions (11th century). Also, they wre an indigenous Iranian dynasty, who came to the thrown of Iran after winning a civil war.
  • What you call north Azerbaijan, is infact Arran. The region was never called Azerbaijan, the only Azerbaijan ever in history was Iranian Azerbaijan. In 1918, so that the pan Turks could claim Iranian land, called their short lived nation Azerbaijan, even though Iran and Russia protested the name. Later, The Soviet Union also chose the name Azerbaijan so that they could also claim Iranian land.
  • The regions of Azerbaijan were part of the Iranian empire for over 3000, and their inhabitants were Iranics for most of ancient and mideval history. Places such as Tabriz, Baku and many other places were founded before Turks even got to the region. Today, many of the place names in both Azerbaijan's have Persian names, such as Baku itself.

I dont know what you have been taught in your schools, but historical facts, historical records, DNA testing, culture, and numerous other things support us, and disprove the propaganda that, unfortunatly, is being taught in your schools and universities. These are the things they dont teach you in north Azerbaijan and Turkey, and I dont blame you, I have met countless Turks online that have the same opinions and thoughts that you do, and its not your fault, its the fault of the system.Khosrow II 15:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tabriz is Azerbaijani City

Khosrov, your arguments are counter productive and lack evidence. Yes DNA tests have revealed that my ancestors are the mixture of Turks and local Caucasian Albanians, who have been living in the region for thousands of years and have been local tribes. I hope you don't want to say that Babek was also a persian.

For each of your arguments above I can bring multi-arguments that Azerbaijnanis are Turkic origin people, by language, by ethnicity, by culture, by even looking. Look at a typcial Azerbaijani. Do you see anything closer or familiar with persians. I look at myself, netiher the color of my skin, nor my looking indicate that I have anything to do with Persians. persians are Ariyans and my History and DNA tests indicate that I am Turkic and Caucasian Albanian.

Tabriz have been mostly Azerbaijani by almost three thousand years. It has been the capital of the historical Azerbaijan untill 1812 and will be the capital of the future united Azerbaijan forever. You will see it I am sure.

The carpets made by Azerbaijanis belong to Azerbaijani culture and civilization and it shoudl be known this way. For more information abotu Azerbiajnais look at wikipedia or other creidble sources.

It is your history curriculum which is totally wrong and based on persian chauvinism, not my history. ALso please leave your subjective arguments. The history is written and carpets are weaven when I write this. And the people who write the hisotry of Tabriz and make the Tabriz carpets are Azerbiajanis, hence they belong to Azerbaijani civilizations. Stip vanbdalizing this web page.

For your information also, there is no iran, there is ISlamic Republic of Iran which is formed by Azerbijan, Persian, Kurds and etc. Tabriz is part of the Azerbaijan and will be that way. Go and claim persian what you have been doing in Persia, not in Tabriz.--Rembranth 20:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC) --Rembranth 20:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


I am so glad that you brought up these points. Lets begin:


Khosrov, your arguments are counter productive and lack evidence. Yes DNA tests have revealed that my ancestors are the mixture of Turks and local Caucasian Albanians, who have been living in the region for thousands of years and have been local tribes.

  • No, Turks have only been in the region since the 11th century, and their numbers were not even that much, that is why today there is almost no Turk genes in anyone west of Central Asia. In Turkey, only 9% of the total population as a Turkic gene, that means that 81% percent of the nation is doesnt have any Turkic in them. People with Turk genes are even less in Azerbaijan. However, DNA test have shown that Azeri's are closer to Persians and other Iranic people, therefore, they have finally be vendicated and it is now known that Azeri's are infact Turkified Iranics.

I hope you don't want to say that Babek was also a persian.

  • Yes, Babak was a Persian. His name is Persian and he was a zoroastrian. He fought the Arab occupation and was an Iranian nationalist. What do you think he was? Remeber that ancient and mideval historians and writers all say that the language of the regions of Aran (now known as north Azerbaijan) and Azarbaijan were Persian speaking.

For each of your arguments above I can bring multi-arguments that Azerbaijnanis are Turkic origin people, by language, by ethnicity, by culture, by even looking.

  • Please do.

Look at a typcial Azerbaijani. Do you see anything closer or familiar with persians. I look at myself, netiher the color of my skin, nor my looking indicate that I have anything to do with Persians.

  • Turks have Mongoloid features. There are almost no ethnic Turks west of Central Asia. The real ethnic Turks are the ones that live in Central Asia and have mongoloid features. Look at Uzbeks, Kyrgyz's, Kazakhs, etc... They all have the Asiatic features. Ancient historians record Atila the Hun of having Asiatic features (Mongoloid) and Seljuk statues show that their shah's also had Mongoloid features. Turks from Turkey and Azerbaijan are not Turks, nor do they look like Turks. (by the way, Mongoloid features means that they basically look like Mongol, chinese, and Korean people)


persians are Ariyans and my History and DNA tests indicate that I am Turkic and Caucasian Albanian.

  • I just told you that DNA testing has proven that you are more closer to Iranic people than Turkic people. And by the way, its almost (if not at all) impossible to test for the Ancient Albanian gene, so I doubt your credibility.

Tabriz have been mostly Azerbaijani by almost three thousand years. It has been the capital of the historical Azerbaijan untill 1812 and will be the capital of the future united Azerbaijan forever. You will see it I am sure.

  • Which Azari's are you talking about? Azeri Turks or Azari Iranics? It doesnt matter does it because Azari's are Iranic. Also, did you know that Tabriz, Baku, Azerbaijan, and many many other names are all Persian words? Did you know that Turan is a Persian word? Did you know that Turk is a Perso-Arabic word? And finally, your POV and propaganda is coming out.

The carpets made by Azerbaijanis belong to Azerbaijani culture and civilization and it shoudl be known this way. For more information abotu Azerbiajnais look at wikipedia or other creidble sources.

  • Azari culture is Iranian, and Azarbaijan has always been a part of Iran, and Aran (north Azerbaijan) was taken from Iran by Russia. I suggest you take a look at some of the articles on Wikipedia if you want to learn more about your people.

It is your history curriculum which is totally wrong and based on persian chauvinism, not my history. ALso please leave your subjective arguments. The history is written and carpets are weaven when I write this. And the people who write the hisotry of Tabriz and make the Tabriz carpets are Azerbiajanis, hence they belong to Azerbaijani civilizations. Stip vanbdalizing this web page.

  • I was raised and educated in the United States, so unless the USA is really controlled by "Persian Chavanists" I would appreciate it if you didnt say my education is based on "Persian Chauvanism". Where were you educated?
  • I am not the one vandalizing anything, it is you and your POV that is vandalizing this article. Tabriz is an Iranian city inhabited by Iranian Azari's. Did you know that one of the Users who reverted this article is an Iranian Azari himself? Even he doesnt agree with you. And half of my family consists of Azari's ;)Khosrow II 20:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


Rembranth, please note that this is an encyclopedia and not a propaganda forum. Here we emphasize facts and not POINTS OF VIEW! Tabriz has been an Iranian city for thousands of years and Iranian Azaris are Iranian. Tabriz rugs has always been known as persian rugs since they are produced by Iranians in Iran.Arash the Bowman 11:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop talking nonesense. Everything you say is nothing but subjective.

Azerbainais are Turkics origin. Original Turks have been Europen, blond and with blue eyes. Go and read history.

Turks have started to come to the rgeion even 1000 years BC. Tehir fightings with persians whom they have sevceral times defetated are well known. You can look at your hisotry books and learn this.

My DNA tests have shown that I have nothing to do with riyans and persians. I am Azerbaijani Turk. The tests and studies you might have seen most probably have done by a persian or armenian chauvinist as you.

Tabriz as such has been and will be part of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan will become independent with capital city fo Tabriz. Recent revolts against the persian chauvinism once more prove this, where 200 Azerbaijanis were mrudered by persian chauvinists.

My lnaguage, look, color of the skin, hisotry, culture is much more different than yours. Nothing common. Read Azerbaijani and Turk sections of Wikipedia to increae your knoweldge of Turks and Azerbaijan. Turks ruled you for almost 10 thousand years.

Tabriz carpets belong to Azerbaijani and Turkish culture and history. As these people are Azerbaijanis.

I don't care where you have been raised. If you are raised in US, you are most likely a folower of a persian chauvinist prince or whatsoever rza pehlevi who was kicked out by Azerbaijanis in iran. Next time the it will be all the iranian and persian garbagae in Azerbaijan, who will be kciekd out.

--Rembranth 20:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not a place for your POV. I have dealt with people like you before, and the word Truthiness applies to you in every way.Khosrow II 20:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Rembranth, you really should take a look at the Turks page of wikipedia to learn more about the origin and history of turks. Please stop vandalizing this page. Tarbiz rug is known all over the world as persian not Azerbaijani.Arash the Bowman 14:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Arash, Tabriz carpets are known as persian because you captured the name and fame when we were under occupation, both by Persian and by Russian. Now the NOrth Azerbaijan is independent and the south will soon follow it. The capital will be Tabriz, the historical capital of Azerbaijan. Tabriz has been Azerbaijanis and therefore the culture and carpets made by them belong to Azerbaijani civilzation. It is you and khosrov, who are vandalizing this web page. --Rembranth 20:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


this is not the place for yout POV and propaganda. you dont know the history of the region, that is evident by your posts. I dont have the time explaining everything to you, so i suggest you study on the history yourself, from non Turkish sources! english wikipedia is a good place to start.Khosrow II 21:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the user rembranth knows that Wikipedia has no insult policy! Also the term Persian rug has no ethnic affiliation. The country of Iran has been called Persia for a long time in the West and hence the terminology Persian rug. Even some of the rugs made outside of modern Iran are called "Persian Rugs" due to their design. Just like French-Fries that are made in the USA does not necessarily mean that they are made by French people. So Persian carpet is a set of carpet designs and it is accepted terminology.

The problem with what you say is that as distinct from US, Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis have existed for thousands of years. They have their history and terms. Calling things with their names would just show them the respect. The Persia and Persians refer to a specific nation/ethnicity, which has nothing to do with Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis, except that we have been neighbors for many years, fought with each other, lived in peace sometimes, sometimes Azeribaijnais ruled Persia, sometimes persians ruled Azerbaijan. I don't exclude that there might be some inter-ethnic mixture oevrtime, thru marriages. Azerbaijani identity is far dsifferent from the persian one, and the Tabriz carpets is the contirbution of the Azerbaijani civilization to the world civilizations, not the contribution of Persians. So thing need to be called with their names.

Also note that there is no Iran right now. There is Islamic Republic of Iran, of which Azerbaijan is one of the founding nations. Indeed it was Azerbaijanis who kicked out the ultra-natinoalist/faschist pahlavi regime.

Coming back, the last word is that Tabriz rug/carpets are Azerbaijani carpets and this needs to be known and credited as such. Calling my art, my carpet persian is a direct insult to me as Azerbaijani and all Azerbaijnis living in the Islamic Republic of Iran have proven that they are different by revolting against some persian chavinists cartoons that cost 200 lives of the finest Azerbaijani sons. But this didn't happen for nothing. This is just the fist step towards the independence of the Southern Azerbaijan from Iran, of which Tabriz will be the capital. --Rembranth 15:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


I suggest once more that you read the articles on Iranian azerbaijan and Azerbaijani people, before making such rediculous claims. Once again, the term "persian rug" simply means that this rug is from Persia which is the name Iran was known as until relatively recently. Therefore anyone and anything in Iran can be considered persian. It is through that the name persian is originally the name of an ethnic group, but during millenia it has come to mean Iran and what is Iranian in western culture. In exactly the same way that "Egyptian" means anything from the Land of Nile eventhough, etymologically, the word Egypt is derived from the name of an ethnic group, namely the "Copts" who are a minority in Egypt. Remind you that the name of the country is "Misr" in arabic, in the same way that the name of Persia is Iran is Farsi.Arash the Bowman 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Arash, thanks for your advice. But I know my history and identity better than you, who have been US for most your life. So please keep your precious recommendations for yourself.

Tabriz has historicaly been Azerbiajani and Turkic. I have no connection to persia and persians and I will not have anything to do with them. Tabriz people are Azerbaijanis and carpets they make belong to Azerbaijani art and civilization. Stop your blackmailing and persian chauvinistic arguments. --Rembranth 16:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

it doesnt matter what you believe or what you think. what matters is that this article has to be accurate, and your version is propaganda, historical revisionism, and not factual.Khosrow II 16:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

I have fully-protected the article due to revert-warring between the editors. Please discuss changes on the talk page & reach a consensus rather than engaging in edit-warring. Request unprotection once a compromise has been reached. --Srikeit (Talk | Email) 03:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

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