Talk:Taíno
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Taíno has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
In a page like this, what is important is a balance of academic and indigenous community perspective. I have noticed from my earlier edits that my perspective as a Taino, have been altered time and time again.
I would like to inform those making future edits that I will remain diligent and continue to educate persons with respect to Taino culture in the best way possible. That includes revisting this page and making sure the Taino perspective is well represented.
I look forward to any dialogue on this matter.
Bo'matum (Thank you), Roberto Mucaro Borrero
Dear Relatives and friends, I, who am an elder and the hereditary Cacique (Chief) of the Jatibonicu Taino People of Boriken (Puerto Rico), do hereby support the efforts being put fourth by, Mr. Roberto Mucaro Borrero, as he attempts to present a more trueful history of the surviving Taino people of the circun Caribbean, from the viewpoint and prespective of one of the surviving descendants of the Taino Native American Indian people. I say to those people who are foolishly attempting to distort and re-edit these pages that, We whom are the last of the surviving Taino People, shall with the grace of the Great Spirit, prevail, no matter what you may be attempting to do to distort the truth. Signed by, Cacique Pedro Guanikeyu Torres, Han-Han Catu (And Let it be so) (Signed and sealed on this 1 day of February 2006. [[1]].
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[edit] To Mr. Berrero
Mr. Berrero, I am a teenager of partial Taino descent who is interested finding out more about Taino culture and history than this short encyclopedia entry would allow. To be completely correct, I am not 'sure' that I am Taino, but I do know that I am descended of Cuban Indians, and that sort of makes Taino the most likely. I know a bunch about my European heritages, and even quite a bit about modern Cuba. But I now wish to know about these ancient inhabitants of those sun-washed islands, the land of my father's fathers. In short, my interest has been piqued. I would appreciate it if you could tell me where I can find resources that would help me. Please leave another message here if your interested, and we can figure something out. Bo'matum, KC Lopez
[edit] barbecue
It is claimed that the word 'barbecue' comes from the Taíno language. If this is true, it would be a nice fact to add to the article. If it's not, it could be explained in the barbecue article...
The Tainos used the word "barbacoa" when referring to an observation post built in the fields to watch the crops. It was made of wood and high enough to watch the fields. There is probably no relation to the modern barbecue. Carmen
- Well the RAE dictionary doesn't rule it out. It says of the spanish word barbacoa: Quizá del taíno barbacoa, conjunto de palos puestos sobre un hueco a manera de parrilla, para asar carne. — Perhaps from the Taino barbacoa, set of sticks placed over a hollow in the way of a grill, for roasting meat.
- — Hippietrail 09:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Barbacoa, Canoa, and Hamaca are all taino words which have crossed over into Spanish and English (barbecue, canoe, hammock). As I understand it, this is generally accepted by historians of Latin America.
~Micah
[edit] Looking for Information...
Last year I prepared a research paper on the subject of Taíno religion, primarily using the sources listed below. Not all of them cover the Taínos exlusively, but they all contribute something. Maybe in the future I'll try and expand upon the encyclopedia entry.
Bray, Warwick, ed. The Meeting of Two Worlds. New York: Oxford University Press, 1993.
Cook, Noble. “Sickness, Starvation, and Death in Early Hispaniola.” Journal of Interdisciplinary History 32.3 (2002): 349-386.
Curet, Antonio. “Descent and Succession in the Protohistoric Chiefdoms of the Greater Antilles.” Ethnohistory 49.2 (2002): 259-280.
Livi-Bacci, Massimo. “Return to Hispaniola: Reassessing a Demographic Catastrophe.” Hispanic American Historical Review 83.1 (2003): 3-51.
Olsen, Fred. On the Trail of the Arawaks. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1974.
Pané, Ramón. “The Relación of Fray Ramón Pane.” Emory College. Nov. 11, 2004 http://www.college.emory.edu/culpeper/BAKEWELL/texts/panerelacion.html.
Randzens, George, ed. Technology, Disease and Colonial Conquests. Boston: Koninklijke Brill, 2001.
Rouse, Irving. The Tainos. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1992.
Royal, Robert. 1492 And All That. Lanham: Ethics and Public Policy Center, 1992.
Sauer, Carl Ortwin. The Early Spanish Main. Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1966.
Sokolow, James. The Great Encounter. Armonk: M.E. Sharp, 2003.
Stannard, David. American Holocaust. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992.
Stevens-Arroyo, Antonio. Cave of the Jagua: The Mythological World of the Tainos. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 1988.
Thomas, Hugh. Rivers of Gold. New York: Random House, 2003.
[edit] Accuracy of existing Taino
I'm not sure how accurate it is to claim that there are still Taino indians out there. I know that many Puerto Ricans claim to be Tainos, but I doubt the truthfulness of this claim. It's not likely many Tainos ventured to Puerto Rico where their bitter enemies, the Caribs lived.
The only Tainos still around would be of mixed Taino/African decent. Those who mated with African slaves who they often worked with side by side before the pure Tainos were all killed. It's impossible to know how much of their blood is still out there, but we do know that their culture has been completely irradicated. The Taino genocide was the most complete genocide of all of history. I doubt any non-Haitian Taino blood still exists.
Where are the sources of scholars who claim pureblooded Tainos survived slavery?
- Puerto Rico was settled by Tainos, not Caribs. Recent studies have found that over 50% of Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mitochondrial DNA. It cannot be said with certainty that this is Taino and not South American blood, it's most parsimonious to assume that this is substantially Taino blood. There was extensive intermarriage with Spanish settlers - few African slaves were imported were present in the early stages in Puerto Rico. In the Dominican Republic there is much more evidence of Taino survival and intermarriage. There are reports of Tainos being "extinct" alongside contemporary reports of Taino villages. On the other hand, in Haiti there is likely to be very little Taino ancestry - Haitians are either African (the vast majority) or mulatto.
- There are few credible reports of "pure" Tainos surviving until the abolition of slavery. But there is overwhelming evidence of them having a major impact on the modern population of the Greater Antilles. Guettarda 00:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Hi, do you have any resources from scholars about Tainos in Puerto Rico, or the scientists that di did the DNA testing you talked about? A name or anything would do, I'd like to try and track down the original sources of this. I am a Haiti buff, so I had not heard this about Puerto Rico. Indeed I had been taught that Puerto Rico acted as a hub for the Caribs who also inhabited northeastern Dominica. I was under the impression that the Tainos were only on Hispaniola. Thanks.
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- There are many current studies that are actually trying to prove that Caribs and Tainos were the same people. Borike (Puerto Rico) was settled by Tainos. In fact the southern Tainos of the island had close relations with the Tainos in the island of Haiti (Hispaniola). The site of the Research of Taino Native American Blood in Puerto Rico is: http://members.dandy.net/~orocobix/pr-taino-dna.htm
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I will look up more information about the research about the Caribs and the Tainos, but if you get a chance there is an etnohistographer (? etnohistografo) called Jalil Sued Badillo. His works are mostly about these themes. Another good source for info is Jose Ortiz Aguilu a Puertorican archaeologist. Currently they are professors in the University of Puerto Rico and they are experts in these themes.
[edit] Need to add Taino mythology
I came across this article hoping to find information about Taino/Arawak mythology. Specifically their creation myth. This article does discuss about the father/son battle and the breaking of the gourd, which after research of my own I believe this to be their creation myth, but I'm not for certain. Anyone who has knowledge on Taino mythology should add the information that they know.
Dunno if Sued Badillo is the best person, I find him a little too dogmatic. However, his ideas may have some validity will post more tomorrow (El Jigüe, 10/13/2005)
[edit] Might have married...
I don't understand why an anon insists on changing: "They took many Taino wives in civil marriages, and had mestizo children" to "They might have taken Taino wives in civil marriages, and had mestizo children". Is there some rationale for insisting on this change? Guettarda 16:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
G: Good shot. That should have read "They took Taino women and had children in casual intercourse, common law or religious marriages." (El Jigüe, 10/9/2005)
[edit] Page name should be "Taino"
I've just checked the big 4 online English dictionaries: AHD, Collins, Encarta, and Merriam-Webster. All 4 include the spelling "Taino" and none includes the spelling "Taíno". The accented version is the correct Spanish spelling and could very well be the correct spelling in Taino orthography, but it seems it is not the correct spelling in English. The Wikipedia policy is to use the accepted English spelling for page titles.
The page for Yoruba language has recently made this correction. — Hippietrail 17:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
- Yep, you're right, especially since Taino is not a Spanish loanword, it's (presumably) an Arawkan word, equally a loanword in English as it is in Spanish.Guettarda
Perhaps the form "Taíno," that it with the diphthong disrupted should be used as a guide to pronunciation, otherwise the English form accent on the unbroken diphthong Taino sounds oddly comical to Spanish speakers. However, I did know a Taíno who went by the name of Tano, said derived from Utiliano (El Jigüe, 10/29/2005).
[edit] Fairy stories
This article is such a mess, I don't even know where to being. It's full of of myths and legends stated as facts... Guettarda 16:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- Such as? Zanturaeon 00:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Rumors of Atlantean civilizations during ice ages in Cuba, although supported by logical interpretations of Ancient Greek and Egyptian records 1 and much touted by the present government [2], are not supported by archeological evidence. A case can be made for an exploratory visit by a Chinese fleet in 1441 3. What we do know for sure, from the archeological record and mitochondrial DNA studies is that indigenous pre-Taíno and the Taíno peoples discovered the Antilles many thousands of years ago, apparently exterminating major megafauna, including condors 4, giant owls 5 and eventually groundsloths 6.
While this is not necessarily inaccurate, the article should never start with fringe theories.
At the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492, there were five Taíno "kingdoms" or territories on Hispaniola, each led by a principal Cacique (chieftain), to whom tribute was paid. Another indigenous group called the Carib lived in the islands. This group is said to be another Arawakan related people originally from South America. The Tainos and the Carib would sometimes battle each other.
This is an unsourced "just-so-story". Not encyclopaedia quality. There page is full of links to Amamzon (sic), which are not appropriate. A lot of the information in here appears to be unfiltered reports of early Spanish explorers, which is not taken at face value by scholars. In addition, a new article has basically been appended to the top of the article. Guettarda 03:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
- Guettarda, completely agree that this article is in a deplorable state. The fringe Atlantean bit was also inserted into History of Cuba, I've excised it there and I think the same can safely enough be done here- it adds nothing-, and if every supposed location for Atlantis were to be admitted, there would hardly be a geographical article without such a reference. The whole thing is in such a parlous state that it would almost be easier to start from scratch.--cjllw | TALK 04:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Oyea tau:
The archeological record is incomplete we will learn much more eventually. However, I find it amusing that "historians" not cited discussing a matter at least 500 years past second guess the actual witnesses of the events described. Julian Granberry and Gary Vescelius in their recent 2004 book Languages of the Pre-Columbian Antilles make far better comments than I on this absurd notion.
As to the use of Amazon.com links to these books, some here apparently do not yet know that often these sites contain at least the index and sometimes considerable parts of the text. However, these may believe that only the web not books hold the future.
As to the references to Atlanta (as in the Atlantic Ocean) they are usually derived from Plato (using Egyptian sources), who specifies "beyond the pillars of Hercules" that is west of Gibraltar. Once Troy was such a "myth." When I was young the presence of Vikings in the Americas was almost entirely based upon the Edas and also considered the myth. Of course in those days we all had 48 chromosomes, ulcers were caused by mere stress, genetic material was histones (DNA was considered "stupid," and the Mayan Languages were almost a complete enigma.
Every decade is seems a new civilization is discovered in the Americas. perhaps there are ruins of the Roman settlement in the Canary Island. So what we need to do in reference to such unknowns such as Atlanta. and the arrival of the Chinese, Saint Brendan, the African expediditions, the Basque Cod Fishermen etc in the Americas, is to keep an open mind and wait and see.
A wise old scientist once told me it is not what you know that holds you back, but what you think you know and ain't so that does. The case for Atlanta in the Caribbean is quite strong, and we ought to know it, but that will have to await until archeologists find something substancial.
There is little certain in life but death....and entries here would be wise to keep this in mind.
p.s. watch those excisions you may cut yourself
Taino Ti
(El Jigüe, 10/7/2005)
- Be that as it may, but we are constrained by Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Also have a look at the Manual of Style. We shouldn't link to commercial sites that are selling books - you need to reference the books properly, include their ISBNs, and let people find them for themselves. Guettarda 20:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
G: The cazigazgos of Cuba are well known here is a slightly different list which omits Baracoa because it is not in the Cauto plain, but it is from a Cuba government source which you are sure to believe. The original Author is Velázquez:
"Velázquez en relación con la geografía del Cauto menciona la existencia de los cacicazgos de Mayyé, Maniabón, Cueyba, Bayamo, Guacanayabo y Macaca," [[2]]
On the other hand the "horrible Miami mafia" like me sometimes prefer:
"Maniabón, Cueiba, Bayamo, Macaca, Bayatiquirí, Maisí, and Baracoa." [[3]]
xe xe but I think you do not speak or read Spanish let alone Taíno. So as lawyers say if you have the law on your side, bang on the law; if you have the right on your side, bang on the right; and if you have nothing, like you have, bang on the table. Well your fist must be hurting by now se xe han han (El Jigüe, 10/7/2005)
- The Spanish is not a problem, but you have not supplied a credible source. Newspapers print myths all the time. The simple fact is that most conquistador accounts cannot be taken as facts. They bear some resemblance to the truth, but no scholar takes them at face value. They are myths - they contain a grain of truth, sometimes a large one, but that's all. As for "Taino" - the existing lexicon is far too small and fragmentary for anyone to read the language. There isn't even consensus about the meaning of the word itself (it was almost certainly not their name for temselves (sic). Regardless, Wikipedia needs to limit itself to established factual claims. The reports of the conquistadors can be reported as such - so "V. said X" not "X is the case" (not without independent verification). Rather than trying to argue with me, you should read the links I provided above. In addition, need to read Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Guettarda 23:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
G: If you are going throw out first hand reports and scholarly studies of these accounts what is left. As to the links you have provided I find none that relate to Taíno. As to the Taíno reconstruction of the language (by careful comparisons with related Arawak languages) that will take time. For an over-view of the Arawak culture I suggest (ISBN 0-252-02758-2). (El Jigüe, 10/8/2005)
One of the problems is that the Taino culture was spread across a great many islands Puerto Rico (Boriquen), Hispaniola (Haiti and Quiskaya), Jamaica (the transliteration is little changed) and Cuba (generic Cubanacan). As a result today we have to deal with political separations, as well as the growing body of ethnic, biochemical, archeological evidences, as well as diverse interpretations. However, while this in itself is evidence of vigor and interest, it also makes for some disorder in presentation. For instance the Taino irrigation systems were well developed in Boriquen, while so far as I know non were used and apparently not required in Cubanacan. The climate seems to have varied since the time of the Conquest.....(e.g., Barreiro, 2005). Then there is the question of settling general definition of state of development. I prefer copper age since throughout the Caribbean basin the use and recognition of different metals was wide spread , and early European arrivals found that the different indigenous populations had different sets of words of gold, silver, copper alloys (Hakluyt, 1907)
Barreiro, José 2005 In Cuba the cry was for water. Indian Country Today part one October 13, part two October 20, 2005. (accessed October 25, 2005) http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411742 http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411782
Hayklut, Richard (1907, reprinted 1929) The interpretation of cereine (stet) words of the language of Trinidad annexed to the voyage of sir Robert Duddeley. J.M. Dent & Sons London, E.P. Dutton, New York Vol. 7 p. 171.
[edit] Racial mix
Has anyone ever thought that Tainos was mixed?? When you hear the Spanish wrote of the beautiful faces of Tainos and how they stood 6 ft tall.. Knowing that "natives" of the Americas came from Mongolians who are short and stalky and not seen as visually appealing. It didn't hit me until I heard about the Melungeons. They came from Portuguese/Moorish people which stood taller and mixed with local Natives of the South East coast. They lived in Florida,North Carolina,South Carolina,Georgia,Tennessee,Virginia and I know Tainos was living in Florida and possibly southern Georgia. Just a though because my family is Taino and all the men are tall. we are all dark meaning like the Moors not like a dark white person like Catherine Zeta Jones a.k.a brunette (what hispanics call a morena but I call white). and people confuse us for Middle Eastern all the time.
--Bhagi 11:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Fact tags
I have added several {{fact}} tags to this article because it has many unsourced statements. Furthermore these statements which are, at best, minority views are presented as concerte, proven facts.
If sources are not provided for these statements I wil remove them. Also, I will be adding information using Irving Rouse's books. Joelito (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Language
Why there is no info about their language here?
[edit] Taino Cothing
The Pre-Columbian Taino people of Puerto Rico in the 15th century learned from the Spanirds how to make shirts and pants made out of cotton cloth. The style that the Jatibonicu Taino use today is in the traditional campesino Jibaro mountain flavor of Puerto Rico. No we do not dress like North American Indians as we dress like Taino people of today and we are not Pre-Columbian Indians. And some modern day Taino people like dressing in the Pre-Columbian style.
![[1]](http://www.taino-tribe.org/guanikeyu.jpg){kind=link}