Talk:Szczecin
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Szczecin is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Poland on Wikipedia. To participate simply edit the article or see our current projects and discussions. On the main project page we have some tools to help you out. Don't hesitate to ask questions! |
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- For archived discussions see:
- Safe copy as of 25-06-2004: Talk:Szczecin/Safe Copy
[edit] Szczecinski.Studenciak.pl
I have decided to remove this link [1]. Why?
- This page is in Polish and doesn't contain vital nor important informations.
- This page/magazine is not even popular.
- There are dozens of such great, cool, super, fresh and funny pages/magazines. Many of them have some relations to Szczecin. Should we put all of them here?
- Szczecin article shouldn't be used as internet directory.
- Szczecin article shouldn't be used as advertising board.
- IMO it's SPAM.
Wally77 09:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Szczecin vs Stettin
I have never heard any English speaker refer to Stettin as Szczecin, probably because that is somewhat difficult to spell/say as compared to the German version. Seeing as this is an English encyclopedia, I added the English spelling of the word to the spellings section... might just want to do German/English instead. Antman 23:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please read discussions at Talk:Szczecin/Archive 1 and Talk:Szczecin/Archive 2 (keyword: Stettin). Please see "Gdansk/Vote and this page" section. And then... shhh.... Don't wake the Demons of the City Name... They should sleep... Forever. :-) --Wally77 10:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Protection
Alright, I've protected the article. I notice no discussion of this stuff on the talk page. Good work guys. john k 02:44, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
John, I agree with the protection, and it should also happen to the articles for Gdansk, Poznan, Wroclaw and any other simalar articles where this edit war occurs. But rather than hashing it out repetitively on each Talk page, can we do so on a single page and develop a standard? Perhaps the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities is the best place? Bwood 03:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
There's been much discussion of this before. We never seem to be able to work anything out. But, yes, I think that would be the best way to handle this. john k 04:50, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- OK, I'll start a section at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities tomorrow. Something like "Standard treatment of name issues of Polish towns with significant German histories", perhaps. It should also apply to those towns that were occupied by Austria and Russia, as well as other places that I'm less familiar with. Bwood 06:14, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Don't deal with it separately from "Standard treatment of towns with significant Polish history" like Hrodna, Vilnius, Lviv, Kiev etc. Otherwise we will have a problem again. We will please the Poles, but upset Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belaruses, or the other way around. Space Cadet 06:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Are you saying to make it more general? or less general? If more general, then something like "Standard treatment of name issues of towns with significant histories of occupation by neighboring states"? Or should it be even more general? Bwood 06:43, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Very good question. And to make it even harder: Szczecin was never under German, and Hrodna, Vlnius, Lviv, Kiev under Polish "occupation". Space Cadet 07:00, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Yup, making it more general would be a good idea. We should avoid double standards. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 07:00, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
I concur (for once) with Space Cadet and Halibutt. I'm not certain how to formulate it properly, though. Perhaps we could just have it on Central/Eastern European city names, or some such. john k 07:38, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Indeed, we could include the Hungarian/Romanian/Slovakian and Czech/German naming issues as well. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:12, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Slovene/German issues would be worthwhile, as would German/Hungarian/Slovakian issues (i.e. Bratislava). john k 12:21, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
OK, I'll throw a project name on the section, and then let's continue this discussion about scope. Give me about an hour.. Bwood 03:24, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Unprotection
This protection (which has gone on since September 10) was only ever supposed to be temporary. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 20:36, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
All protections are only ever supposed to be temporary. Seeing as no solutions have been reached on either this talk page, or the general policy page where naming issues like the ones that caused this page to be protected are meant to be discussed, I would suggest it continue to be protected. john k 20:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I strongly agree. The bellicose stimulation by edit wars are a far greater danger for Wikipedia and Wikipedians than the protection. Changes can of course be discussed and agreed on on this talk page regardless of if the page is protected or not.
--Ruhrjung 20:08, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)
When is this page going to be unprotected? Because I was going to add this article to Category:Coastal cities, and I can't do that if it's tied up. - Gilgamesh 00:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Because of page protection can admin add City Hall picture ? Image:Szczecin_urzadmiejski.jpg
[edit] New infobox
I'm preparing a new set of infoboxes for all the Polish cities. I'd appreciate if one of the admins replaced the current table with the following:
| Szczecin | |
 |
 |
| (Flag) | (Coat of arms) |
| Motto: none | |
 |
|
| Basic Information | |
| Country | Poland |
| Voivodeship | West Pomeranian |
| Population | 413 600 |
| Founded | 8th century |
| City rights | 1243 |
| Latitude Longitude |
14°34'E 53°26'N |
| Area | 301,3 km² |
| Density | 1372/km² |
| Area code | +48 91 |
| Car plates | ZS |
| Twin towns | Berlin-Kreuzberg, Bremerhaven, Dalian, Esbjerg, Hull, Lubeck, Malmö, Murmansk, St. Louis |
| Economy and Traffic | |
| Administration | |
| Mayor | Marian Jurczyk |
| Municipal Website | |
Also note that there are lots of useful PD pics in the Polish and German articles. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 22:47, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Copyright problem
The photo of Stocznia is allegedly Copyvio (see claim in Polish Wikipedia: pl:Dyskusja Wikipedysty:Jonasz). Nevertheless let's wait until further clarification. Przepla 21:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Sound file
Can we get a sound file of the pronunciation? The one we've got my copy of WinAmp tells me has no duration, and it makes no sound. Teucer
- No problem, I'll fix that. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:02, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
Please, whoever is fiddling with this entry, get real and refrain from saying that the then-wholly and totally German city of Stettin was "liberated" by the Red Army. The Germans DREADED the approach of the Red Army, with good reason -- both in terms of what the German Army and SS, etc., had done in the Soviet Union, and the revenge the Red Army already was exacting for those atrocities in eastern Germany.
Stettin, Germany (today: Szczecin, Poland) was no more "liberated" by the Red Army than Warsaw was "liberated" by the German Army. Both were conquered, with dire results for their inhabitants. Such were the savage and retributive dynamics of WWII in the east.
You can say Warsaw was "liberated" by the Red Army, though some might challenge that; but no German city, particularly those east of the postwar Oder-Neisse border, was "liberated." Need we mention that ALL of old Stettin's inhabitants were either killed or expelled? Is that "liberating"? Give me a break!
Sca 01:07, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] User Sca's changes
Please do not start a revert war about Szczecin. The language you are using is quite POV and really against the very neutral tone of the whole article. "Repatriated" is a much better word to describe what has happened after the war to the German people living in Stettin and sure "conquered" to describe Red Army’s liberation of the city is too strong a word. I will not revert the article to its former version yet, if you don’t agree with my wording please suggest what you would consider to be appropriate but please note I do not agree with the current version.
- Conquered is the neutral word here, before it was German, afterwards it was Russian, the process used force. And: conquer: to gain or acquire by force of arms. Liberate, on the other hand, implies that the city was grateful for the russian advance, which is simply not true. -- Chris 73 Talk 04:23, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sure that the Russian forces were grateful that they have taken the city. Anyway "conquer: take possession of without permission or take with force, as after a conquest or invasion" - it was neither a conquest nor an invasion. What about the following "[...]until 1945, when it has fallen to the Red Army and became a part of Poland". BTW - I don't think there is a need to say it has fallen/been captured/conquered at all, a better way to say would be "until 1945 when the Nazi Germany was defeated and it became a part of Poland".--Roo72 04:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Gdansk/Vote and this page
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that according to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/Notice we should have the Szczecin (Stettin) in the header, don't we? Przepla 21:06, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Correct. I added the (Stettin) to the first occurrence of the name. -- Chris 73 Talk 23:06, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Current border
Stettin under the Potsdam conference was supposed to remain in Germany. It is west of the Oder river. So legally is this city still part of Germany under Polish administration ? I am curious to the exact details about this if anyone can enlighten me? Thank you. Sean.
-
- Although the Potsdam conference set general guidelines as to the border, it was left for future border delimitation and a peace treaty. Since no peace treaty was ever signed between Poland and Germany (technically, if it wasn't for the 1945 unconditional surrender, Poland and Germany would still be at war, much like Japan and Russia), the border was based on joint Polish-Soviet-Interallied commission line drawn in 1945. It was later accepted by GDR and by FRG in 1970. Finally, in 1990 the acceptance of the border was one of the prerequisites for the unification of Germany (as stated by the 4+2 conference) and was confirmed during the OSCE summit in Paris that year. Halibutt 19:09, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Expelling the German population in 1944-1945 a "repatriation" to Germany ?
"Expulsion" or "repatriation" is a euphemism for ethnic cleansing of territory that had been German for several hundreds of years. Many now would not want to change today's borders but one has to deal honestly with historical facts. An estimated 3 Million+ German Cilvilians (!) have lost their lives during the years 1944 and following. Most of them were women and children.
[edit] In the aftermath of World War II the city became ONCE AGAIN part of Poland...
Stettin was not part of Poland before 1945. The fact that Polish dukes were involved in the war actions in the 12th/13th century concerning the town does not make it a part of Poland. At the same time, Danish dukes were involved, and the city even came under Danish influence for some decades. This also did not make the town a part of Denmark. Concerning the population, this was probably mixed in the beginning years (Wends and Germans). The fact that Wends were Slavs does not make them Polish, however. I am quite sure that my changes will soon be reverted, and I will not participate in an edit war. I just wanted to have this comment documented on the discussion page, for the sake of the historic truth. By the way, this has nothing to do with the fact that Stettin is today called Szczecin and as such is part of Poland. This, however, should not lead to a falsification of its history.
The English language word used for this disputed city is the same as in German which is 'Stettin'.
[edit] Inclusion of Stettin in Poland
I have doubts about this part of the current article:
... it was undecided if the city would be in Poland, or in the Soviet occupation zone in Germany. In the aftermath of World War II the city became, unexpectedly and contrary to the Potsdam Conference, part of Poland due to the Polish army simply taking it.
In researching a paper on the expulsion of the Germans, I found that:
- 1. Inclusion of Stettin in the future Poland was demanded by Stefan Jedrichowski, propaganda minister of the Soviet-sponsored Polish National Committee, in an article in Pravda on Dec. 18, 1944.
- 2. At Yalta, on Feb. 6, 1945, Stalin put forward the border demands published in Pravda two months earlier. The next day, Molotov did the same, specifying inclusion of Stettin in Poland.
- 3. Article IX of the Potsdam Accords, issued on Aug. 2, 1945, says:
- "The three heads of Government agree that, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier, the former German territories east of a line running from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Swinemünde, and thence along the Oder River to the confluence of the western Neisse River and along the western Neisse to the Czechoslovak frontier ... shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany."
This last point documents the de facto determination of Poland's western border. Note that the language of Article IX referring to west of Swinemünde (now Świnoujście) corresponds to the present border west of ex-Stettin (now Szczecin), indicating that however reluctant the Western Allies may have been to accept this part of the border de jure at the time, they had as a practical matter acquiesced in the Soviet/Polish demand for Stettin, and should not have been surprised that the city was taken over by the Poles shortly thereafter.
Sca 03:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
