Talk:Syntax

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this is a where a decent vector drawing engine could be very useful for diagramming and demonstrating

1 Proposed merge
2 Bulldogs bulldogs fight fight.
3 Merge "Syntax In Computer Science"
4 Systemic Functional Grammar
5 Syntactic combination
6 Syntactic terms?

[edit] Proposed merge

Someone proposed merging this article with the article on grammar. I think that's not a good idea. First, "grammar" is a rather vague term that, in some circumstances, can refer to the whole body of regularities that a given language obeys, including but not limited to syntactic regularities. Second, "syntax" is by far the more common term in the study of formal languages, programming languages, etc. Best to keep those two concepts and their articles distinct. --MarkSweep 02:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I proposed the merger. Currently both articles have content on natural-language grammars, and both mention formal-language grammars, so it seems something needs to be done. I would support refactoring along the natural divide between these two topics, under whatever titles seem appropriate. Should we just arbitrarily move formal-language stuff to "syntax" and natural-language stuff to "grammar"? -- Beland 05:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just graduated with a degree in linguistics (I say so in Talk:grammar article too, I'm not trying to brag). I don't feel that such a merger would be appropriate. It would be like saying the article Holland should be merged with the article The Netherlands, or Pediatrics with Medicine. Syntax is a PART of grammar, it is NOT synonymous with grammar. The notion that sytnax and grammar are synonymous is the result of a common misconception that arises among English speakers because most of what we're taught in school about grammar is actually syntax. Furthermore, this is not just a distinction between natural and formal languages. Natural languages all have their respective grammars, and they all have syntax as a part of their grammars. Formal languages might only have syntax (I'm less certain about this, someone who knows formal language better than me could answer this), but in any case, maintaining a distinction between syntax and grammar along these lines alone is not sufficient. Natural languages have BOTH grammar AND syntax as part of that grammar, and both topics are large enough to merit separate articles. 24.250.246.178rhesusman 13:45 UTC 24 April 2005

I removed the merge request, as per the discussion above and on the Talk:Grammar page. However, I do think that this article needs some cleaning up. Would anyone like to work on this with me? Physicist 17:51, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've been meaning to clean this up for a long time. I especially dislike the early division of "In <field X>, syntax means Y". There are lots of commonalities between these fields that could be discussed meaningfully in a unified way. Other details such as the choice of start symbol under "transformational grammar" are rather arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant. I would prefer a unified discussion, perhaps starting with the material that's currently grouped under "semiotics", before branching out into the various individual fields (which are clearly related, so perhaps these distinctions are not needed at all?). I'd be glad to help out, even more so toward the weekend. --MarkSweep 18:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bulldogs bulldogs fight fight.

A classic example of English syntax.

If you really think about adding this to the article, please explain why it is a 'classic' and also why it is relevant; in other words, give the example some context. I pulled it out for now because it lacked it. — mark ✎ 13:55, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge "Syntax In Computer Science"

The "Syntax In Computer Science" section should be moved since it is extremely off the topic of linguistics. If this could be done by someone with a Wikipedia username (seeing that I'm not), that would be greatly appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.11.0.254 (talk • contribs).

ih-

I don't think it should be merged - I do think it should be completely rewritten though, especially as a significant proportion of the formal study of syntax in CS is derived from work like that of Noam Chomsky. Keywords're a minor issue at best! It's possible it should also be extended to include relevant issues in mathematics and logic, and (speaking from the CS side) I'd be rather surprised if there were no notion equivalent to that of abstract syntax in CS.

--86.17.110.80 02:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Systemic Functional Grammar

There is a statement about Systemic Functional Grammar that seems to me out of place. Could somebody either explain what Systemic Functional Grammar has to do with a general article on Syntax or else remove it? If I don't hear any arguments to the contrary, I'll remove it myself. --Svenonius 11:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Syntactic combination

Monotonic approaches to syntax, such as Head-Driven Phrase Structure Grammar, Lexical Functional Grammar, Construction Grammar, and cognitive grammar generally do not operate with rules of syntactic combination but rather with the notion of syntactic schemata which license or block the occurrence of sequences of words in discourse.

This strikes me as inaccurate. For example, the principle/rule in HPSG which licenses sisters of a head which match that head's SUBCAT list would seem to be a fairly clear instance of a rule of syntactic combination. Perhaps schemata-based grammars are more common in construction grammar than in HPSG/LFG. In any case, the difference between grammars using "rules of syntactic combinatiion" and schematic grammars is mostly just notational. (People mostly seem to be interested in schematic grammars because they want to hang some kind of noncompositional semantics off them, but you can do that with a non-schematic grammar too.)

Anyway, I don't want to change this too hastily, any comments? Cadr 11:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)