Talk:Symphony OS

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For the June 2005 deletion debate on this article, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Symphony OS.

Contents

[edit] Advertisement

No offense guys, love the work, but this reads like a press release, particularly in regards to package management.

I agree with the above comment. The project looks interesting, and I don't wish to snark, but the style of this seems more apt to an info page on the project website than a wikipedia article. I'd edit, but I'm unfamiliar with the project.
It's an advertisement and that's all, and they managed to get it on /. but I have to admit, I do like the desktop environment.
Guess what? No one cares about your opinion of what it looks like. Give it a rest already.
EliasAlucard|Talk 03:32, 9 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
I care. This is just shilling for a product. More at [1]
-- Clay Shirky
So what if this is an advertisement campaign? What are you going to do about it? Nothing. You can't do anything, so you might as well just shut the hell up with this stupid bullshit of yours. Because that's exactly what it is. Period.
EliasAlucard|Talk 10:51, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
What are we going to do about it? Edit the page until it is no longer an advertisment. This is wikipedia after all :-). BTW does the agression and arrogance go down well when collaborating on an open source project? Simontzu 18:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What advertisement? There are none. Every single Linux distribution has its own article on Wikipedia. Why is this one considered advertisement? Do you really believe Clay's word? He doesn't know what he's talking about. He just wants visitors to his blog. The very fact that Wikipedia might work in a way for advertising, is an inevitable side-effect due to its virtually unlimited contributors. And by the way, what kind of a crime is advertisement anyway? Is there a death penalty for it? Please, get real and wake up. Don't buy everything you read on blogs as canon.
EliasAlucard|Talk 20:50, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
Firstly calm down and engage rationally - using terms like "wake up" and "death penalty" are counter productive and make you look like an excited teenager. Your wikipedia entry was very "fan boy" which is not appropriate for wikipedia, Symphony looks like a good project it is hurt more than helped by hyperactive promotion. Do a google search for "creative commons" + "Bzzagent" for something similar. Secondly Clay Shirky is not some random guy looking for traffic to his Blog - he is THE commentator on social software and online communities, this is not just any old blog - just one by one of the most respected and valued thinkers in this space. Do a google search for Clay's writings and read some of his papers - they are fantastic. I think you really meant well with the wiki entry and the slashdot post but got a little carried away. Now would be a good time to chill out about the whole deal and focus on helping out Symphony. I'm sure some of the criticism seemed personal and was hurtful and this is why you reacted so strongly but don't take it too personally. Clay is commenting on Internet trends to a wide audience so compassion is not his first priority. Hey look at it this way you got Symphony slashdotted & got the famous Clay Shirky commenting on your promotional tactics - You have a great future as an Internet marketing consultant :-) Simontzu 23:08, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you stupid or something? No, seriously, are you stupid? Don't you get it? I did not have anything to do with that slashdot thing. I don't have an account there. I'm not active there. I never visit that site. Have you got it yet, or should I explain it one more time? And the death penalty thing... ever heard of sarcasm (I linked it for you, check it up)?
Clay Shirky is a nobody. What's up with this reverence thing you got going on for him? His blog about this Wikipedia entry was just about one of the dumbest thing I've ever read, and I'm not being biased here just because it was partially about me. He's making things up, and you guys are sucking it in as if it was Gospel or something. "WOW, I GOT SYMPHONY SLASHDOTTED AND THE FAMOUS AND AWESOME CLAY SHIRKY (what a stupid name) COMMENTED ON MY "PROMOTIONAL TACTICS," I AM GOING TO BOW DOWN IN AWE TO THIS MYSTERY!!!!!!!!!11one" Idiot.
You're calling me a fanboy, when you seem to be a fanboy of him? Please. You know what? It's time to stop wasting effort on this article. It's taking time, and Mr. Clay brought some idiots over here, like himself for instance. It's a boring endeavour now. This post on the talk page is my last, regarding the talk page and the article page of Symphony OS. Do whatever you want with this article, I don't care.
EliasAlucard|Talk 04:04, 11 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
Ahh, young love. I think Shirky's taken, though. In any case, the article is looking like a pretty decent stub now that another dozen people have taken cracks at it. +sj + 02:54, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] We're in the news--again... my retort

I checked out this "news article" that "Clay Shirky" so nicely pointed out (probably since he wants more visitors to his stupid blog, which makes him a hypocrite when accusing me of advertisement, being that he posted the "news article" and thus, made some advertisement for himself). Seriously, what's his problem? Doesn't he have anything else, of higher importance to write about, than some stupid vandalism on Wikipedia articles? He's writing about me as if I were more controversial than Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky, just because I started this article, and that I'm trying to defend it from vandalism. Oh man, talk about having nothing else and more important to observe.

I seriously contemplated to email him and tell him to stop posting stupid stuff on the internet, but I figured it would've done no good anyway. Give it a rest you guys; no one cares about some user maintaining an article on Wikipedia, especially when it comes to a Linux distribution (no real news magazine on the internet would post something of a geek-topic like this, it's not even news to begin with). I wouldn't either if I wasn't working on this article. There's no public interest here. And if you care so much to know, I really don't have anything to do with Symphony Linux, except that I find it a possibly interesting Linux distro that I might use in the future, and I've voluntarily offered my help if the developers want to translate it to Swedish. Other than that, I'm not affiliated with it.

Oh and one more thing. About that advertisement thing... in case you didn't know: Linux is free, as in beer. And so is Symphony OS. Even if we were trying to advertise it, there's no profit to make, rendering your stupid accusations about this being some advertisement-scheme void. By the way, I have nothing, I repeat: nothing to do with Slashdot. I had not even heard of the site before some anon user posted about it here on the talk page. So give up those conspiracy theories of yours whilst you're at it. EliasAlucard|Talk 11:25, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

Where did Clay say his external post was a "news article" and why do you rip on him for that? Also, your statements "no one cares about some user maintaining an article on Wikipedia" and "There's no public interest here" seems to go against what Wikipedia actually aims to be, a service in the public interest that people do care about.--mtz206 12:34, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Because he's accusing me of advertisement. I did not write all that positive stuff on Symphony OS about how it's going to put an end to the dependancy hell etc. It pisses me off way too much, when someone talking out of his ass, making up conspiracy theories, and allegedly false claims. This is the only "advertisement" I've done. It says right on that site of his, "TECH News, filtered daily." Although, it seems he is writing a blog. The entire reason I created this article, is because I wanted to learn something about it, without having to wade through thousands of posts on various forums.
"no one cares about some user maintaining an article on Wikipedia" and "There's no public interest here" with the public interest thing, I meant the part about advertising. Trust me, there's really no public interest thing here from my side. I don't edit articles on Wikipedia for the case of advertisement. Especially an article such as this one, which might be read about 100 times at most: it won't make any commercial impact. And trust me, it's really nothing of importance if I edit a Wikipedia article. He's writing it as if someone would actually care.
EliasAlucard|Talk 15:05, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
Please practice some civility with your comments. If there is a problem, use proper dispute resolution procedures instead of constant reverts and arguments on the talk page.
He's writing it as if someone would actually care. We should treat every wikipedia article like we care, no matter how unpopular it is. Please clearly state the issue and let's get it resovled. If we can get an agreement on the talk page on how this article should look, we won't have anything to argue over. This stuff is getting nowhere fast and I'm ashamed I have to read this stuff on Wikipedia (Slashdot would be no surprise but it certainly has no place on Wikipedia). --Will2k 15:22, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
There is no problem here, and the dispute resolution isn't needed. He and other anon users are conjuring up problem out of the blue. "He's writing it as if someone would actually care." <--- I was referring to his blog, not the article. What he was doing, was basically to write a condescending post on his blog, about how Wikipedia 'works' since he's in the know-it-all business. The reason I'm reverting, is vandalism etc. Clearly, this Clay dude has way too much time to spend. He's wasting our time as well. Until anyone can prove the stuff written in the article being fake advertisement. Leave the content there and don't remove it.
EliasAlucard|Talk 21:21, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
As you said below, any attention brought to this article means more readers, which means the article will improve. I came to this article, made my own decision about the tone, and made some changes. That's how Wikipedia works. DenisMoskowitz 19:28, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
It's looking so shabby now. +sj + 02:54, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Licensing

Is this stuff Free software? Or it is some kind of proprietary distros like Linspire and the others alike? Thank you

Here's Ryan's response from the Symphony OS forum: "Symphony is fully GPL'ed though, like redhat we do protect our trademarks. Symphony will always be free. Jason and I are planning a services based business built on Symphony and will charge for services (remote backup, hardware rental, etc) but the software will always be freely available and under the GPL."

Questions like these can be answered at the Symphony OS forum. Please do not continue to post them here.
EliasAlucard|Talk 03:32, 9 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I couldn't find the sources anywhere. You can't just point the people to your own forum. Please reply: Where are the sources? (You know you have GPL software inside your package, do you?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.8.*.* (talk • contribs).

Sorry, but what is wrong with directing people to your forum? Answering questions users have is what they are for. Lurker 09:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The problem is when the question is not answered in that forum (http://www.symphonyos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=886 and http://www.symphonyos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=734), and not answered here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.8.*.* (talk • contribs).

[edit] Slashdot

This article was on the front of a Slashdot article. We could expect some vandal activity. Wikibofh 17:20, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's good that you mentioned it, so we can prepare ourselves. On the other hand, it'll improve the article a lot since we'll inevitably get more working on it.
EliasAlucard|Talk 19:32, 8 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Why does this article include a Trivia section? Is it really notable that the site was slashdotted? I don't think every article about a website that has been slashdotted includes a note about it, or even that it should. DenisMoskowitz 18:23, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

Like any other article, the trivia section will be increased in time. I don't see how it hurts to have the trivia section, and people might learn what the slashdot effect is (and perhaps prevent using it). As for the NPOV thing, have you checked this up? It might be true. Removing stuff from the article, might not be the best move. The user who added that information seems to know some stuff about the OS, and until proven to be false, I'd say it should be in the article. Even the developer of the OS said that he liked the article [2] (ryan's post), whilst he could be biased about the positive stuff written in it, I doubt that it would make the content of the article false. Removing the stuff about the new menu system is not a justified move, since it described the new and unique features with Symphony OS.
EliasAlucard|Talk 20:50, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
We're kind of having two conversations here, one on the trivia section and one about the NPOV-ness of the article. Regarding the first, if the slashdot effect is not relevant to the Symphony OS in general, it doesn't belong on this page. I might like people who visit this page to learn about Wikipedia policies, but that doesn't make it relevant. (Besides, being slashdotted isn't really rare enough to be notable.) Regarding my "NPOV" changes, I did my best to keep the information the same but to change the tone to sound less like a pitch, and to remove information that is redundant. "So users can try out the OS" sounds like an ad, and is just repeating information that's in the LiveCD article. Saying that it uses Mezzo which is a simplified desktop should be enough as long as there's a Mezzo article - if someone wants more information, they can go there. The name of the new package format is not relevant to the OS - what's important about the package system is that it simplifies things, right? That was what I left in there. DenisMoskowitz 19:17, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
Whilst it may sound like NPOV to you, I have a bad feeling about the lack of folders, so it's all a matter about opinion. As for the LiveCD thing, that's exactly the point with LiveCD: try out the OS. Anyway, I changed that to make you happy :)
EliasAlucard|Talk 21:28, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC
It's not about me. It's not about you either. It's about the article, and whether it's encyclopedic. It still reads like an ad to me, so I'll make some more changes. DenisMoskowitz 19:35, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
If the article reads like an ad in your opinion, then it's about you. I don't have a problem with it; it's not like it's written in caps lock: USE THIS LINUX OS!!!!!!!! I think you're exaggerating. But sure, the article seems fine now.
EliasAlucard|Talk 22:04, 10 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had a chance to make my changes yet. What I meant was that "making me happy" is not a goal.DenisMoskowitz 20:08, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
I removed the Trivia and Goals sections because they were inconsistent with other articles about computer operating systems and are against the Wikipedia guideline regarding content. Examples I used were Microsoft Windows, MacOS, and Debian. Steve Kirks

[edit] Other removed content

I think it's neat to include discussion of goals and dynamic aspects of ongoing projects. It would be mighty difficult to do this right - clarifying when these were goals, whose goals they were, where the goal-set was being maintained by the developers (if you're the first dev-team to keep your goalset maintained publicly on Wikipedia, more power to you! Else reference the section); and difficult to fit them productively and concisely into the article. But they should at least remain on the talk page for future editors of the article to reference. +sj +

[edit] Goals for Release 1

  • Provide a simple way of installing applications with or without an internet connection avoiding "Dependency Hell".
  • Provide a single graphical tool for installing *.deb packages, source packages, and Symphony binary packages.
  • Develop and easy to use rapid application development environment (Orchestra) for creating simple GUI applications that are highly portable and easy to install.
  • Provide users with an easy to use Desktop environment without using KDE or Gnome but rather with a lightweight window manager (fvwm).
  • Provide an easy to use installer in the form of a minimal livecd which loads an installer in a full GUI environment.
  • Provide a repository of Symphony binary packages for end users.

[edit] Goals for Future Releases

  • Integrate Wine more closely with the desktop environment adding support for selected Windows programs to the same GUI Installer system used by native applications.
  • Expand capabilities of the Orchestra environment to allow for more feature rich widgets (i.e. beyond standard html elements).

[edit] Actually...

If this project is notable at all, it's probably for the Slashdot/Shirky angle. Suitably added, if nothing else then as an object lesson to anyone in the future foolish enough to try a similar stunt. --Michael Snow 05:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Michael, as one of the more active forum members, I can firmly promise you that this was not an organised attempt to popularise this OS and none of the members stated, at least pubicly, that they intented to use slashdot to increase publicity. I would wish you would thus refrain from accusing us of that. --Dark Leth
Finally, someone with a brain here. Thanks Dark Leth, highly appreciated. Let's just suppose that this was all an advertisement pull from the beginning. Do you guys really think I'm stupid enough to believe that this OS would've gotten a significant amount more users? No. I don't think it would. At best, probably a few hundred more. And in the Operating System world, that is next to nothing.
EliasAlucard|Talk 18:04, 11 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
Dark Leth, if you read the text in the article, nobody's being accused of anything. It doesn't say that anybody in the forums had any involvement, it just attributes the effort to "an enthusiast", whom we can't further identify. Surely you don't deny that these promotional efforts actually happened? --Michael Snow 17:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well... I honestly doubt that such a dubious propisition happened, although the whole scenario itself is quite odd. I can't explain why the /. article portayed itself so zealously, or that Elias was defiled for trying to help us with the wikipedia article. However, if there was a fan willing to go so far as to masquerade a story as a blunt tool to recruit new members, I must wonder why he would not make himself known to the community, or at the very least, make his identity known to us who are prominent in the community or the product leader himself.::Dark Leth
Check this link. I started that thread exactly after I had created the article. It clearly shows how little I know about this OS, and how I wanted help with the article. Why would I want to advertise something I don't know anything about? The software might suck, and I don't take chances like that because it might be a bad OS. There never has been any advertisement from my side. The entry about Clay Shirky isn't Symphony OS material. Bloggers aren't encyclopedic material. It's not interesting to read in every article about what they're up to, or what kind of opinion they have.
EliasAlucard|Talk 20:02, 11 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
A blogger as well-known as Shirky is at least as encyclopedic as a random Linux OS project that's still in alpha. If you want to defend your personal honor from Shirky, you can go do that on his blog, but we're not actually saying anything about you in this article, so it doesn't matter whether you were trying to advertise by creating it. The point is that somebody did try to advertise (elsewhere), and it had some notable results (desired or not). --Michael Snow 18:09, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I actually think I'm much less important than the issue of how SymphonyOS in particular, and thinly produced pages in general, are handled. For instance, I agree with the decision to remove the M2M article from the SymphonyOS page. That article is essentially Talk: by other means, and I don't think it rises to the level of meriting inclusion in the entry itself. Michael tells me I was wrong in guessing that esavard was engaging in a reputation hack, and I've apologized to esavard and to Ryan Quinn [3]. The key issue is assuring NPOV for thinly edited articles. --Clay Shirky
Given that the apology is akin to a retraction, I agree that it no longer belongs here. The remaining issues have to do with Wikipedia and Slashdot, not Symphony OS. --Michael Snow 19:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
All right, but answer me this: why is no one at the Slashdot article's comments, accusing Slashdot of advertisement? (check it up yourself, just scroll down) Could it be, because that's how Slashdot works? No one was trying to advertise anything. You're a Clay Shirky-fanboy, stop believing his bullshit. He's not encyclopedic content. A Linux distro is, and the reason he doesn't have an article, is because he's not worthy of one (yet). He's a blogger. Sure, he might have a little higher share of readers than the average blogger. It doesn't make any difference. You don't get an entry on Wikipedia because of that. So it's alpha software. What's wrong of being early with the Wikipedia entry? It will probably become stable software, and be more used widely. There's nothing wrong of having the article up fast. And as far as advertising goes, Clay did more advertising than just about everyone, both for Slashdot, and Wikipedia. Not to mention the Symphony OS site. So if anything, he should just stop writing his hypocritical nonsense. The entire reason Slashdot linked to the Symphony OS site, is because it's the official site. That's how news sites do, in order for the reader to get more information. And the link to the Wikipedia article, was to get more factual knowledge about the project, so the Slashdot poster wouldn't have to explain everything himself, and spare time for those who are not extremely interested in reading the entire Slashdot article.
EliasAlucard|Talk 00:43, 12 Jun, 2005 (UTC)
I find it bizarre that you're so defensive about the existence of this particular article ("What's wrong [with] being early", you ask), yet in the same breath so dismissive of the idea that a notable blogger should have an article. Or maybe you're unaware of just how many bloggers have articles on Wikipedia — see Category:Bloggers. --Michael Snow 03:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It must be the latter then; I don't know how many bloggers have a Wikipedia entry of their own. I know that Maddox has one, but he's not a blogger according to definition. EliasAlucard|Talk 20:12, 12 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] LiveCD reference

Removed the parenthetical note about what LiveCD enables. The very point of hyperlinks is to eliminate the need for such explanatory notes within encyclopedic articles. --mtz206 02:59, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. EliasAlucard|Talk 12:26, 12 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging

The suggestion to merge the article Mezzo (desktop environment) into this has been made. Actually, given the lack of content in the article its more of a deletion than a merge IMO. Lurker 12:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. As long as the Mezzo Desktop doesn't have an importance for itself (as long as it's not employed in other linux distributions, for instance) it doesn't make sense having an own entry. Merge it. --Benedolt 10:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'm using this desktop environment in Ubuntu. If it had not had an article of its own, I may have assumed that I couldn't use it with Ubuntu (being a bit of a linux newbie)Random 01:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I am against merging. If it is used on other systems than Symphony, it doesn't belong there. I am against deletion. It is a desktop environment, and it deserves its own article. If you prefer another desktop use it, but don't delete this article. Someone should expand the article. 5 June 2006 (anonymous)

Since there is a consensus for keepign this, I've removed the merger notice Lurker 09:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] symphonyos.com hacked

As of 16:48 (BST) 17/09/2006 (DD/MM/YYYY), the Symphony OS website appears to have been hacked by 'Turkish Hackers' (I'm not sure if this conincides with the apparent financial problems that the project was having that forced the site to be replaced by a pledge page several weeks ago, which may explain why nothing much is being doen to restore the original page after the hack).

[edit] SymphonyOS.com is down again

The domain has been parked by iDotz.com. Between the last hack a few months ago and this surprise, the SymphonyOS people haven't been doing much with the site, just two or three front page overhauls. Plus, the forums were being bombarded with spam, and were not frequented as much as they were much earlier this year. Is it safe to say that the project is out of commission yet? --Toussaint 02:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope not. It looks fun. I wish I knew how to program so I could help out. Oh well, guess that leaves me time to learn Solaris and AIX. Dawhitfield 20:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lost hosting, not domain

The domain is still registered to the project leader Ryan Quinn, so I have changed the article to reflect this inaccurate information. Nodekeeper 18:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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