Talk:Symphony No. 9 (Dvořák)

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[edit] Taken to the moon?

Neil Armstrong took this symphony to the Moon during the Apollo 11 mission, the first Moon landing mission, in 1969.

In what sense? Did he take a recording, or a score, or something else? --Camembert

Good question - almost certainly a recording, but I don't know which technology (LP or tape?). Sadly, I only found one comment about this story on the internet [1] - search for Apollo. Let me just say that I was told that the music was being played when they landed - which is not a bad idea given the name "From the new world"... --Lumidek 02:00, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

About my removing the interwikilinks — their failure to work for me may be browser-specific (Safari (web browser) 1.2.4), might be a good idea for me to put them back...Schissel - bowl listen 04:09, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Try it now - I've fiddled with it, and I think it should work. The problem, I think, is that fr, de and various other pedias "understand" the caron-R character, but en does not. Got around it by pointing the interwiki to a redirect. --Camembert

I (had to? well, ended up...) us(e/ed/ing) a similar patch for Bacewicz, alas. (Different but very similar problem.) *nod* Hope the next version of the software clears this up, even if it also deprecates — etc as I have also heard. Schissel - bowl listen 20:06, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

How accurate is the statement that the second movement is the most popular? I frequently find references to the symphony based on the fourth movement because of John William's score for Jaws. Olessi 23:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No. 9 or No. 5 ??

Curse of the ninth mentions that this was originally published as his 5th Symphony, and the orchestral parts I've played from are also titled: "Symphony in E Minor (No. 5, Op. 95) / From the New World" --Sommerfeld 14:05, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

*Indeed. Symphony 1 (Bells of Zlonice) was outright lost until the 20th century, and symphonies 2-4 (B-flat, E-flat, D minor) were at least not published, I believe, until then. In the meanwhile the accepted ordering was--

  • Symphony 1 in D (now symphony 6)
  • Symphony 2 in D minor (now symphony 7)
  • Symphony 3 in F (now symphony 5)
  • Symphony 4 in G (now symphony 8)
  • Symphony 5 in E minor (now symphony 9).

Other works of his - string quartets, just for instance- have double opus numbers, also (publisher- Simrock- wanting Dvorak to recycle older works while he gave the impression to the public that they were newer, I think. The G major string quintet got this treatment. This is one reason to use the catalog numbers - Burghauser, B. - instead of opus numbers - to refer to Dvorak's music as unambiguously as possible, in my honest opinion.) Schissel-nonLop! 01:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration for Jaws theme

Should mention be made that the Jaws theme is reminiscient of the opening to the fourth movement? Olessi 19:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moving comments from bottom of page for discussion here

I don't believe that anyone reputable thinks, automatically, that the "New World" Symphony draws on Czech folklore more than American. That would be an absurd conclusion. I believe it has been clearly established that Dvorak drew on American sources, ranging from Longfellow's writings, to African and Native American music, to specific notations of American birdsong. Whether this makes his music "American" or "Czech" is more a matter of belief than knowledge, since such categories are truly amorphous.

I've written several books on Dvorak, and read all recent books on the composer and am disillusioned to see such outdated stuff here.

Best,

Mike


Michael Beckerman Professor and Chair of Music New York University

I hope you'll help us with the article. Wikipedia relies entirely on voluntary efforts. Keep in mind that the further one gets to matters of opinion, the more important it is that the opinions be sourced; i.e. our articles don't depend on the authority of the contributor. Even an expert contributor is expected to cite sources. But an expert can usually locate good, appropriate, citable secondary sources. Your own published books would qualify
If you're aware of anything pithy in your own or anyone else's books that speaks to the degree of Czech versus American elements, by all means put it in. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

The article's title is misspelled: it should be "Dvořák". Ardric47 08:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

  • See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). First, the convention is to use the most commonly used name, not necessarily the most accurate. Second, there are problems with using some diacritics in article titles; I'm not sure whether this applies here. There is no consensus about what should be done in the case where the native spelling of a name is identical to the most common English spelling except for diacritics. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be no problem with the article of the composer himself, Antonín Dvořák. Ardric47 13:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jaws?

I snipped

The famous theme from Jaws is very similar to the beginning of the 4th movement.

because "similar" is pretty subjective. I don't think the similarity is all that striking—I'd never noticed it or perceived it that way when I saw Jaws. I doubt that many perceive it as being a reference to the symphony. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually the first time I heard the fourth movement of Dvorak Nine, the first thing that came into my mind was Jaws (I had seen the latter before hearing the former). As for similarities, Williams didn't copy note for note, but the resemblance I think is apparent. This is the score to Dvorak 9 (on the left-hand menu, scroll ALL the way down to where it says under Symphony No. 9 "Movement IV" - "Allegro con fuoco", and it will be the first page in the strings), and this is the Jaws theme music (the first musical examples). Some things to be pointed out - both examples feature for at least five continuous instances of the use of the minor second (half step) - in Dvorak between scale degrees 5 and (flat) 6 (it is in e minor), and in Williams between scale degrees 2 and (flat) 3 (it is apparently in d minor) unless it is in locrian mode, which is possible - the differences though are irrelevant because in the given passages no further development has been made in either piece. Both feature strings in their lower registers, and have relatively similar rhythms. Both are suspensful - in Dvorak 9 the composer sets a chilling mood that eventually rises in tension until the perfect authentic cadence between the 9th and 10th measures, and in Williams the use of suspense is obvious. As for other people besides myself recognizing a similarity, see [2] (second-to-last paragraph), [3] (the beginning of the second piece by Charles Sheehan) and [4] (the anti-Williams post at the very top). It seems reasonable that at least some mention should be made of this.
    • Yes, Jaws is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard the beginning of the fourth movement as well. The first few bars sound almost identical, though the two composers go in completely different directions after that. In particular, Williams keeps up the minor second bass notes -- removing the dotted rhythm and speeding it up a bit. Then Williams adds muffled horn on top of that. There's more to the Jaws Theme than those first few bars. Was Williams a thief? No more of a thief than Dvorak. The Scherzo of this very symphony is an obvious allusion to the beginning of the Scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (where again the two composers go in different directions after the opening few bars). This type of borrowing occurs all the time in symphonic music. Its not a big deal. 172.165.139.179 08:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I just found this page cuz I was listening to Dvorak's 9th Symphony for the first time and at the start of the fourth movement, suddenly it's the Jaws theme. It's only a few notes but the similarity is absolutely unmistakeable. I can't believe I couldn't find more on this and have trouble imagining any modern ears hearing this piece for the first time without having Jaws spring to mind. 70.230.101.31 04:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced items

This section has been marked as needing references for over a month, and no references have been forthcoming. I'm removing them from the article and placing them here. Per the verifiability policy, linked below every edit box, every item in Wikipedia should be based on something published in a reliable source. I have no doubt these items are true and that references can be found for them, and each of them can be reinserted into the article when it is accompanied by good, verifiable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I added back the Studio Ghibli link, though it's in Japanese. You can see a translation of the relevant part by reading the article. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 06:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)]
Hi, I'm a Japanese. I was suprised finding the reference in this article. In the Japanese page, there is no information except for the film used the symphony. I don't think it is good to refer. I strongly propose to delete this reference link. Nihonjoe, SOUIU KOMAKAI KOTOHA SHITANO RISUTONI KAKUNDAYO, don't add back anymore.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.243.195.38 (talk) 14:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] In popular culture

  • As with other popular themes, the main theme from the symphony set in the early 1900's to words in a popular arrangement called "Summer Days".
  • The Symphony's second movement is well known in Britain for being featured in a 1974 commercial for Hovis bread, directed by Ridley Scott.
  • Symphony No. 9 in E minor-Allegro con fuoco was rearranged and played by the pianist Maksim Mrvica in his 2005 album A New World.
  • The fourth movement of the symphony is used in Emir Kusturica's Underground.
  • Was used by Hovis in the "bike round" advertisement directed by Ridley Scott in the United Kingdom.

[edit] Recommended move

It has been suggested that Symphony No.9 "From The New World" be merged into this article or section. Please indicate your Support or Oppose opinion below, and include any thoughts along with it. Please be sure to sign your opinion with ~~~~.

  • Support as it makes sense to have one article on the topic rather than two. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Went ahead and did it. Here is the text of the article, if there's anything there worth adding here: Alcuin 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== History ==

Symphony No. 9 in E minor "From The New World," Op. 95 by Czech composer Antonín Dvořák (September 8, 1841 – May 1, 1904) is considered the composer's best symphonic work, and it also ranks among the best symphonies of the 19th century. Dvořák worked on it from early 1893 to May 24 of the same year, in the first year of his stay in America. The circumstances under which it was composed also determined its character and purpose. The special atmosphere of American folk music is unmistakeable in the symphony, although Dvořák made no direct use of Indian or other songs. What, then, can one actually hear in that symphony?

== Characteristics ==

More than anything else, one should note its synthetic character. That synthesis is certainly not limited to American elements, motifs or intonations, nor to Czech ones, nor – to adopt a new angle – elements which can be attributed to Dvořák's impressions of America and his nostagia for his distant homeland. The synthesis can also be said to embrace Dvořák's entire experience in symphony writing, the essentials of his approach, and even the principles of the so-called absolute and programme music. It would be a futile exercise, of course, to try to construe that programme as a continuous epic plot, despite the temptation to see the inspiration for the two middle movements in Longfellow's poem "The Song of Hiawatha," certainly an object of Dvořák's avid interest. However, neither the Scherzo, believed sometimes to picture the dances at Hiawatha's wedding, nor the Largo, which more than one analyst has described as a "burial in the forest," can be said to reflect any screen from the poem; indeed, the whole structure and development of the work (of definitely Czech coloring in the Scherzo's Trio) would seem to deny any such impressions. Here, like in the opening and final movements, the composer merely exploits the impressions of the New World which he has found fascinating – and there was much to be fascinated with: the new character of America's life, its exuberant civilization, its wildly beautiful – but also, as Dvořák says in his letters, unpeopled – nature, and the Americans' ostentatious self-assurance and democratic attitudes.

All that can be heard in the symphony, and one could even match the various impressions and stimuli with corresponding themes and musical images, albeit at the risk of over-simplification, since none of the themes is unequivocal, and all of them are transformed in the variations and in conflict with other themes. To be sure, the introduction to the "New World" gives a feeling of alienation, but the first subject, a kind of "leading motive" of the whole symphony, enters immediately with a self-assured fanfare, to progress to a definitely Czech coloring in increasingly numerous shades. The second and final subjects reveal obvious imagery of the black slaves' struggle for freedom, which Dvořák discovered in the the Negro spirituals. Largo, with its elegiac coloring, also owes much to the Negro spirituals, until the variations to the middle section finally succumb to a burst of rebellious vigor. The driving dance-like Scherzo, with a markedly Czech Trio, carries the symphony to the even wilder final movement, in which someone has even alleged to have heard the click of telegraph messages. Without describing to such over-simplification, we can let Dvořák communicate his impressions of America, whose chaotic and multifaceted character he found overwhelming. He emphasizes the image of America by "thematic nodes," in which distant subjects from different movements are intertwined. Moreover, Dvořák reflects here his nostalgia for his homeland, as well as comparisons and relationships between his old and new domicile. The supreme relationship is the voice of the people and the struggle for universal freedom and brotherhood of men.

[edit] "Jaws"

I'm removing

  • The theme from the film Jaws sounds similar to the opening of the fourth movement from the symphony.

No source is cited, and I have just listened to both and do not think the similarities are strong enough to be worth commenting on.

Both have a low-pitched string playing half-step intervals, but the resemblance is not close.

The theme from Jaws, as presented in the collection "John Williams' Greatest Hits," Sony Classical, S2K 52333, begins with a sustained growl, vaguely like the organ note in the opening of Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra (i.e. 2001, A Space Odyssey). A single half-step-up dum-DUM is heard, then a long pause, then a dum-DUM-dum, then a dum-DUM, dum-DUM, then a group of four rhythmic dum-DUM's, and then an energetic, driving dum-DUM-dum-DUM. The ramp-up from tentative, isolated throbs to the rhythmic driving is rather slow.

The fourth movement of the New World Symphony has a dum-DUM, a short pause, a dum-DUM, a short pause, two faster dum-DUMS and before we have time to think of Jaws we are immediately launched into a driving rhythmic passage with violins ascending the scale in a way that is completely unlike the Jaws theme.

The Jaws theme does not sound to me any more like the New World Symphony than it does to the opening of Mussorgky's Night on Bald Mountain, or the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky, or, for that matter, to the Asteroid Field passage in William's "Star Wars."

The similarity is far, far less than many remarked-on musical coincidences ("Yes! We Have No Bananas" and the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah; the March of the Children in "The King and I" and Grieg's "Wedding Day at Troldhaugen.") Dpbsmith (talk) 19:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Park Sound Effect

I found a youtube link to the south park sound effect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09_5T8UmQQI . The Dvorak bit is about 51 seconds into it. The cartoon uses that sound quite frequently, and to me its obvious its taken from the symphony. Its just a silly pop-culture reference so its not that important relative to the other content of the page, but a citation was asked for. I'm not sure how to link "51 seconds into the following youtube clip" as a reference, though. DavidRF 03:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. It's a quotation from the symphony. Not sure how to deal with the citation issue. You could try citing it exactly as you suggest and see whether anyone objects. It's not strictly in line with the WP:V and is borderline with respect to original research, but certainly it certainly gives anyone who doubts the statement that the cartoon uses a fragment of the symphony a chance to judge for themselves. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced parts from popular culture

I'm placing here all of the items which are unreferenced in the popular culture section of the article. Once they are referenced, they can be added back into the article. There may be duplicates as this list gets longer.

[edit] More unreferenced items

Please don't reinsert these without references.

I would add that I don't see the encyclopedic value in simply mentioning a stray appearance of a few bars of an extremely popular symphony. I would encourage people to resist the temptation unless the symphony really forms an important part of the score, to the point where it becomes identified with the game or movie (e.g. Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 and the movie Babe (film), or the Mozart piano concerto it was that they used in Elvira Madigan. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In "One Piece"

I'm moving this here as no reference has been provided. It can be reinserted when someone has a source citation to a published source that confirms this. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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