Talk:Symon Petlura

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[edit] NPOV

I moved the huge material to the article about the assassin. However, the article is now still biased.

What is missing here, the account of the effort of the Petlura to stop the pogroms and witness testimony that he was not an anti-Semite himself.

I hope that anynody can help me with NPOV this article. Cautious 09:19, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The bias you see is because you want to believe that Petliura was some sort of saint. He may not have been directly responsible for the pogroms that were committed and organized by the Ukrainian army-- nowhere does the article claim that he was. But he was the head of government and Commander of that army while they were going on. Thus, as it rightly notes, " Petliura's responsibility...was a widely held belief among Jews." That's a factual statement. It does not say that Petliura was responsible; it says that the belief that he was responsible was widely held by Jews.

To say that he tried to "stop the pogroms" is nice, but you provide no basis or support for your argument. Read the very balanced review of historian Henry Abramson's book listed in the external links.

The information you deleted, without comment, was taken from the articles cited in those links -- from the Ukrainian Weekly, in particular -- based on the historical accounts, court records and eyewitness-testimony. Do you deny the information therein? Do you understand the difference between your own opinion and what has been documented as true? Did your school not require you to differentiate between reality and fiction?

I have removed your change: "The problem with Petlura responsibility for the Pogroms, is that he himself was not an Anti-Semite and he tried to stop them, intrducing capital punishment for that crime. This decreased the number of the pogroms. Petlura is accused of being the head of state, on the territory of which there happenned pogroms."

Your deletion of actual, historical information and substitution with your own personal opinion is what introduces bias. This is contrary to the nature of Wiki.

If you want to improve the article, provide counter-examples -- based in documented history.

LeFlyman 13:13, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Mr Flybrain, we are supposed to make review out of external resources. It is too difficult to understans for you?? OK, you gets all material. Cautious 13:41, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, your English is impossible to understand. The section you plagiarised has been removed for copyright infringement. I'd suggest you try to re-write it in your own words, but I suspect that would be a painful exercise in futility. LeFlyman 16:15, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have edited the information on pogroms somewhat, as it seems to reflect some bias. Two sources on Ukrainian history - written by University of Toronto historian PAul MAgosci and York University prof ORest Subtelny - cite the number of victims as approximately 35,000-50,000. I'm not sure where the 100,000 figure came from (it contradicts subsequent information about the estimate total number of Jewish victims in the Russian empire ranging from a low point of 70,000), but I have retained it anyways while adding the lower estimate. I added the information about Petliura's execution of the otaman (warlord) Semesenko for committing the notorious pogrom in Proskuriv.

With respect to Solzhenitsin's figues in terms of who was to blame for the pogroms, I added some balance by provided numbers cited by Ukrainian researchers. Those numbers were included in Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by the University of Toronto Press in 1988 ISBN 0-8020-5808-6.


[edit] Merge, Petliura or Petlyura?

These articles should be merged: Symon Petliura + Simon Petlyura

Done. I apologize in advance if i inserted something false or npov by merging, but i'm not too well versed in my Ukranian history; i'm only being a janitor. -℘yrop (talk) 05:25, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
It looks fine to me. One thing though: if you want to transcribe the Ukrainian name correctly into English, it should be Symon Petlyura, not Petliura. IJzeren Jan 09:25, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC).
Is that the most common convention? Keep in mind that it can be transcribed correctly in many ways (see Romanization of Ukrainian). —Michael Z.
Petliura can be correct indeed. But my impression is that the wikipedias use popular transcriptions, which in the case of English would be the column BGN/PCGN on the page Romanisation of Ukrainian, rather than scientific or national systems. We also write Yushchenko and not Yuschenko (as the National system that also spawns Petliura seems to dictate). IJzeren Jan 06:58, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC).
I was about to suggest moving the article to Symon Petlyura, but now that I look it over, I'm not so sure.
Names aren't conventionally transliterated according to BGN/PCGN, but transcribed phonetically using an informal system (consider the conventional Dmytro Bortniansky vs. BGN Bortnyans'kyy). Ye, yi, yu, ya are often used, especially to define a syllable break. But ie, iu, ia are also used, apparently to indicate iotation when the syllable begins with a preceding consonant. Petlyura might be read pet-lee-UR-ah, instead of pe-TLIOO-rah.
Look over the names in List of Ukrainians, keeping in mind that many are transliterated by other systems, or from Polish or Russian. Petliura might come to us through Polish or French, considering his history. —Michael Z. 03:32, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)
Vowels after L in Ukrainian are often softened, particularly in Poltava area. The Petlura family (his nephew) in Canada spell their name Petlura. Bandurist 01:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV removal

This article have an NPOV disclaimer since February. Is it still a dispute over it? Przepla 21:58, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think it still needs a lot more historical material unrelated to the pogrom question, but both sides of that issue seem to be represented. I'll remove the notice, and resolve to do some more reading so I can expand this article. Anyone else care to chip in too? —Michael Z. 03:38, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)

[edit] President?

People, I doubt the wording "President" for formal reasons purely. I mean Leonid Kravchuk and Leonid Kuchma are f**n assho*es, but they were legitimate presidents, elected by millions, with constitutionally regulated authority. Can we apply all this to Petliura (who was, no doubt, an outstanding leader)? Pryvit, AlexPU

Pryvit. I think he was head of the Directory, not president. I will mark this article for myself and see to it later, after checking the facts (and yet, there is no article about the Directory either). You touch upon one minor (or so it seems) issue, and pull out a whole bunch of omissions, lack of neutrality, or outright falsification (being impressionistic on this point, rather then factual. however, some falsifications have become mainstream theory - see Da Vinci Code for that matter ;)). In general, as for Ukrainian related articles, would like to recommend the Encyclopeda of Ukraine, published in Canada pretty good in English in 1989-1991 (deplorably, there is no article on this encyclopedia either). Compay 23:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
He certainly wasn't the president. The only pre-Kravchuk president of Ukraine was Hrushevsky. Compay, you may check the Ukraine portal with its notice boards to get a clue of what articles exist. We have a well written, although unfinished, Ukrainian People's Republic. You may check its links for more. --Irpen 00:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Britannica provides these dates

born May 17 [May 5, Old Style], 1879 died May 26, 1926 Lotsofissues 10:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title - Holovnyi Otaman

Changed ataman to Otaman.

[edit] Petlura, Petlyura and Petliura

Another spelling issue - this one is mainly for consistency. Usage of all three within the article reflects differeng views, either past or present, on how the name should be spelt. On the other hand, the article title is Symon Petlura, at the start of the article he is called Symon Petlyura, and for each subsequent subheading his name is spelt Symon Petliura. I could not say whether people who had either never heard of or read about him previously, or had not seen his name written in English before, would find this confusing or difficult to follow. I have not made any edits in relation to this issue, and just wonder what others think.

The Petlura family (his brothers son) spell their name Petlura. In Ukrainian, and in particular in the Poltava region, all vowels after an l are softened. This is the case here as well Bandurist 03:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Petlura the journalist and writer

What is missing is the 1000;s of articles Petlura penned in his writing to various journals and as the editor of various journals, in particular Ukrainskaya zhyzn' in Moscow in Russian. He wrote under a number of pseudonyms. The magazine played a major role in the formation of Ukrainian thinking and was banned in the Soviet Union. From what I can gather a full set only exists in Moscow. There have been a number of studies done recently on his writings - but this wiki article has not addressed this aspect of the man but seems to dwell more on things such as pogroms which he was never directly associated with at all. Bandurist 03:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

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