Talk:Switzerland

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Archive 1 | Archive 2 (attempt to discuss spelling of Swiss cantons) | Archive 3 | Archive 4

[edit] Geographic Location (8-way)

I think {{Geographic Location (8-way)}} is an ugly gimmick. Do we decide whether to keep it here, or on the template talkpage? Indeed, the article is just plastered with other useless templates like {{La Francophonie}}, {{Germanic Europe}}, {{Latin Europe}}, it is really beyond me how people can enjoy heaping up these things. dab (ᛏ) 14:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

removed. --Bob 16:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moratorium Plus

"On May 18, 2003, Moratorium Plus asked about an extension of an existing law forbidding the building of new nuclear power plants." - What is Moratorium Plus? A magazine? A party? It's quite unclear. Can someone change this for clarity's sake? Iain 14:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A moratorium is a timely limited law that forbids doing something. The Moratorium Plus was a constitutional initiative (Volksinitiative) that wanted to fordbid the construction of new nuclear power plants for 10 years. This time should have been used to find a better solution to energy problems. It was denied however by people's vote (58% No) in 2003. Nevertheless, no new nuclear power plants are planned. You can find all information about the Moratorium Plus initiative here: [1] (in German, English not available) -- Hakwea 2006-12-11 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.132.239.8 (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Schwingen, a Swiss variant of wrestling ???

What’s with this sentence in the "Switzerland Portal[2]"?
I mean Wrestling is a variant of Schwingen.

what's wrong with it? the sentence is straight from the lead of Schwingen. dab (ᛏ) 09:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Placement of section edit links

This may be a function of my browser, but on *my* screen the edit links for both section 1 and section 2 show up right next to the picture of Zug - in the middle of a paragraph, rather than by the section heading. My first clue that something was wrong was when I initially had my browser window at less than full-screen, those 2 edit links were actually superimposed on the text of the paragraph! Somebody will know where a little jot is out of place, causing this to happen, but that somebody isn't me! <g> Thanks! -- Newbie Mpwrmnt 08:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Switzerland at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Switzerland. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Europe location CHE.png

I am sorry, these location maps are getting a tad ridiculous. A 711k image to show Switzerland's location in Europe? Featuring bathymetry and an inset showing the location of Europe on the world map?? It could also be cropped so that Switzerland shows up as more than a blob in the thumbnail. I also don't suppose that showing the entire Finnmark is in any sense conductive to giving a better impression of the location of Switzerland. dab (𒁳) 15:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nidwalden Revolt & Neutrality

I dont know about this one...maybe it was put there originally by a Nidwalder...anyways...someone removed that sentence...i restored it with the less flavored adjective ("fierce" suppression) from ("brutal" suppression)...and here we see the difficulties of an encylopedia...there are different viewpoints on things, and even simple adjectives can add subtle shifts to how things are perceived...a line can be politically influenced and who is to say what is the "politically correct and neutral version"...its a very tough call...and many degrees possible...do we say "brutal suppression"..do we say "fierce suppression"...do we say "suppression"...or do we remove the line alltogether???...a french editor would likely want that sentence removed...a pro-neutral swiss from the unterwalden might want it to stay, while a more pro EU swiss might want it removed or with less flavor...the canadian from ottawa wants it to go unless it gets a reference...i dont know...it was a couple hundred years ago...yet even still it seems to maintain some controversy.......human politics......and we see that a truly objective neutral point of view or perspective is really impossible to come by...i dont care one way or the other about whether it stays or not...yet in trying to be neutral find its tough to figure out what exactly neutral is...anyways in the swiss library and archives i think it stays...and with the adjective "brutal"...they dont necessarily pull that out tho for the current newspapers and shows...on wikipedia tho?? anyways neutrality is tough to come by...and this was an event 200 years ago in CH...good luck with an encylopedia article on the israeli-palestinian conflict...itll be hundreds or thousands of years before those two sides will agree on an encylopedia article over it...on issues such as these it seems a neutral point of view can only be acquired by reading many articles from all sides of the issue and that is the true and best history and encylopedia format...many stories & versions side by side...Benjiwolf 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odd Sentence

"While the cantons may be smaller than American counties within American states, the Swiss cantons function with more or less the same independence as American states, and sometimes with even more."

What difference does the size of the canton have to do with acting as independent as US states. Switzerland as a whole is close to the size of a US state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ctitiquer (talk • contribs) 22:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

I guess the sentence means to suggest that it would be remarkable (in a non-Swiss context) for such a tiny political unit to act independently. But I agree, the sentence probably should be changed or removed. ---Sluzzelin 22:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

well even without noting their small size..the independence of the swiss cantons is highly remarkable...not many countries have allowed such independence from their various compartments...and american states arent as independent as swiss cantons from the federal authorities of their respective lands...an example is: if u want to emmigrate to the US u just need to get past federal authorites and guidelines...in CH you need to get past cantonal authorities & guidelines and they can reject you no matter what the feds say...then u even need to get past the individual compartments in the cantons even...u have three authorities...even the individual town can reject u or a district of the city...local control is very important in switzerland...and as its such a distinctive feature of switzerland that tends to stand out from other countries, such as the frequent broad public referendum votes...it even should remain in the intro...as i looked thru various country intros i felt that some brief basic facts are in order for these types of pages and of course the "standardized boxes at the right"...yet mainly the distinctive features and aspects of the various countries would be nice to have in the intro paragraphs...the fact that a tiny canton of a few square miles/km can have more authority and independence than say an american state dwarfing the entire country of switzerland is highly remarkable...(the cantons maintain their own police forces and the feds dont really get much involved, just in severe cases or organized crime/gangs or severe threat to the entire state types of things yet here even rarely...in the US there are dozens of federal police-like agencies constantly involved in state police matters...(the US is different though)...anyways the canton is its own authority...its mainly only when they want to actually secede from switzerland alltogether that the feds get involved...and they try and work together, the various cantons, and coordinate...yet this is much of a voluntary thing...it wasnt easy to convince the appenzellers to let the women vote...finally they decided to voluntarily allow this long after many other cantons did...in the states if some tiny county in Utah (or even all of Utah) had said "were not allowing the women to vote"...people would be arrested and the military would even come in to force them to accept the broader consensus...in switzerland local differences are more recognized & accepted and the power of diplomatic persuasion is used to try and get a consensus when someone seems too far off from the others...even if it takes years...its a different way...not necessarily always better...so say if in the states if they went more this way: if a state like georgia happened to outlaw abortion...they likely could and the feds would have little authority to stop them...they could only try and talk them out of it or use financial incentive etc. etc...)...Benjiwolf 17:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How many Matterhorn pictures

Just a quick question: "How many pictures of the Matterhorn should there be?". Currently there are two (Image:Matterhorn Riffelsee 2005-06-11.jpg and Image:Zermatt and Matterhorn.jpg). Despite its beauty, I think we could do without any (other images of Swiss Alps being used). -- User:Docu

At first glance, maybe the second Matterhorn needs to go (Is Zermatt really a "typical small Swiss ski town", as worded in the caption?) Yes, lots of Alps, but I don't think the selection is bad either, and it's more evenly balanced than the postcard welcome at Portal:Switzerland. More pictures from the Romandie and perhaps a train might make for nice additions too. ---Sluzzelin 10:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

..I'm not sure both should go though. Yes, it's a cliché, but not only is the Matterhorn characteristically beautiful, wont many readers expect to find it here? They might not know its name and be disappointed if it gets left out. I guess I'm saying a picture of the Matterhorn should be included in this article because it's a cliché. ---Sluzzelin 10:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

yes i had thought that when putting in the pictures of the matterhorn twice...i didnt at that time have another good ski town picture...i think i will replace with a nice pic of the simmental i found perhaps... from a lift yet in summertime...anyways the matterhorn i think should stay higher up in the article...it is what most people think of when considering switzerland anyways...its highly symbolic of switzerland...as to many mountain pics...well switzerland is pretty much tons of mountains...and the entire southern half is mainly & exclusively very high mountains...yet there are some places where you cant see any mountains in any directions...though mainly on cloudy and hazy days...or from inside ur house...Benjiwolf 16:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The photos play like a tourist advert or foldout. There is much more to the Swiss Confederation than the beauty spots. It needs more variety so I will probably be adding/changing the pictures. - maxrspct ping me 03:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that even tho I am happy to see such a fine page about my country, the pictures, although representing the biggest part of the landscape, are not the ones where the population is more dense. People might think we live in mountains with no electricity. There are no picture of a city, or a nice shiny take of a city with a fab boardwalk near the lake, of which there are several. And since tourism is a big part of the country, let me tell you that people do not come here for hikes (some do), but they mostly go to the sunny southern region where the landscape is more flat, and different than what I see here. The selection of pictures as seen on this page, is misleading if you ask me. Dollvalley 23:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1890 Valais "painting"

Is that really a painting? It looks like one of those old monochrome photos that they colored in. That was common back then. Bababoef 11:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] things missing

guys... we need at least a mention of William Tell. a painting or a picture of that Altdorf statue? also at least some mention or a picture of military duty. fondue, chocolate, tunnels (Loetchberg?) also something unique to Switzerland would be one of those signs outside small towns that give the worship hours for each religion in the town church. can anyone get a photo of one of those?

Bababoef 11:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

the fondue is nice yet we already have a cheese pic...these are all photos of traditional culture and none of modern day ski town culture etc...and there is after all a culture specific page too you know...Benjiwolf 19:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sali. ah ok. we should put more pictures on that page too then. i didn't know about it. i'll put the schwingen one there. as for contemporary culture, maybe a picture of those colorful painted life-sized cows that were all over the place? in new york city, too i think. as for a ski culture picture, shouldn't there be actual snow in the picture? maybe even a skiier? otherwise it's just another landscape, really. the Bern pic is nice but if it's meant to say something about architecture, wouldn't it be better to put some photos from the Swiss expo? i have some. that's also modern, so we could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. There's also a blank spot near the top which could fit a pic or two if I could only figure out how...

Bababoef 05:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

ja...i felt the schwingen pic a little too much and little more obscure traditional culture, yet maybe nice for the culture page as would a cow fight from the valais under traditional culture...the bern pic maybe should be moved somewhere else i agree with that..yet as its the capital of switzerland i think it should stay somewhere...in terms of the modern culture and city culture i think actually a pic of the inside of a swiss dance party is most accurate...and after all i just read 73% in switzerland now live in cities and urban areas...the traditional culture is nice to have some pics of...yet it is a little misleading if someone just sees these pics of swiss in costume...its rare i see a swiss in costume...just during the cow drives and on some festival occasions...the pic i restored was of quiet summer in the alps...yet i agree a pic of skiing might be nice with some snow for a winter representation...as to a pic of painted cows???...i dont know about that and it doesnt seem to me to fit in a swiss culture discussion and is some recent advertising campaign type thing i suppose???...ive actually never even seen what ur talking about and ive been to hundreds of places in switzerland...Benjiwolf 19:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

the cow thing was kind of a guerilla art thing. in Züri i think? they gave real artists each a life-sized plastic cow to paint and then put them all over the city in random places. some of them were really funny. it was so popular that the project was repeated in NYCity. as for other modern stuff, there's the possibility of a pic of the swiss world cup fussball team. there are 2 other bern pics on the page. but no genève (maybe UN headquarters?) or basel pics. aren't there too many landscapes? especially all those paintings. the dance club thing isn't really uniquely swiss, is it? would you put it on the USA page? more ideas: picture of a swatch? swiss olympic bobled team? Bababoef 05:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

well it seems to me that a thing doesnt have to be "uniquely" swiss to be on the swiss page in general...if dancing and going to music clubs is one of the main cultural activities of the swiss year after year then thats swiss culture...other people make cheese too besides the swiss...that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a cheese pic if its a big thing in CH...i think i mentioned in the text that swiss culture these days has a lot in common with other cultures...and is somewhat cosmopolitan...the traditional culture is there yes...there is a big yodelling fest this year in st moritz area...yet even these yodelers or swingen wrestlers arnt going around in traditional costume much...and they go to dance clubs & ski probably more than they wrestle...we should definately mention the traditional cultures specific to CH, and include some pics, yet we need to convey an accurate image of the culture these days too, so modern culture also has its place if its very typical culture year after year...and by modern culture i mean the last 50 years...what is the typical modern swiss culture this last 50 years???...it is a mix of the traditional culture and modern types that have phased in, such as modern dance clubs...a dance club and a pic of a swiss restaurant/pub i would think are two very good examples of where you see many swiss in their leisure time...a pic of sledding or skiing is also good...sure the swiss do all sorts of stuff, go to art galleries, go to the theater, etc. yet we cant fit in all those pics...put them in a gallery at the bottom tho if you wish...know how to do that???...the main page i feel should be many pics of what switzerland looks like...the countryside...the buildings...and some pics of some swiss people...in traditional costume sure a few...yet mostly what the swiss usually look like...then u have the galleries at the bottom to put in all sorts of other pics or the specific article dealing with that topic...all the old paintings and photos are by history section...Benjiwolf 15:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you don't talk about Swiss banking and banking accounts than your really missing where a lot of the income is coming from. Swiss bank accounts are untouchable by anyone except the person who made the account. It is also rumored that Saddam Hussein had over 300 million dollars in there of Iraqi peoples' money that the law people couldn't take and it was just handed down to the family. 21 March, 2007

Only private, numbered Swiss bank accounts are untouchable to anyone but the person who made the account. There is obviously confusion in that there are also regular Swiss bank accounts, just like many if not most people in Switzerland have with their local bank (which are not just numbered, and also have a name associated with them). I am currently unsure of the proper term for the Swiss numbered bank account. Lostvalley 03:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the swiss "interned" 300,000 people???

do you mean they imprisoned 300,000 people?...do you mean they did like america and somehow had camps people couldnt leave till the war was over like in america with the japanese???...do you mean they took in 300,000 people...just what do you mean??..Benjiwolf 15:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

By the laws of neutrality, i believe set from the Congress of Vienna in 1815, neutral countries are required to intern any people from either side that cross their borders. A lot of french and polish soldiers, and american airmen were interned. planes were confiscated. I do not know if any nazi soldiers were interned. They were given food shelter and visits from the ICRC until the war ended, but could not freely wander about Switzerland. I think the officers and enlisted were held at different locations. The officers were kept in a resort town (Arosa? i forget). This had no fences or anything, but was remote enough that escape was difficult (there was a breakout attempt). The enlisted men were held in camps. Civilian refugees have a slightly different status under international law, but were not allowed to take part in the Swiss economy i think. I think some were in prisons? but some lived in communities under supervision. I'm not sure, it may have been up to the individual cantons. Research on the civilian part is needed, you are right. This is all a matter of international law, which Switzerland took quite seriously, as armed neutrality was it's only survival strategy. They imprisoned a St. Gallen policeman who smuggled Jews across the border and did not pardon him until the 1990s after he died. Pardoning him was pretty controversial. There was also a controversial incident just before the war where a Swiss official supposedly cooperated with German officials in arranging for Jewish Germans emigrating to Switzerland to have a "J" stamped in their passports. The policy was quickly reversed by higher-ups in the Swiss Goverment. The Swiss involvement in this incident is rather murky and still being investigated by historians today. Impartiality or at least following the rules of neutrality is all part of being a neutral country during war. The word "interned" is also used in the Bergier Commission report, which is why I used it here. See the exact reference (with page number) that i included. The economic cost of supporting 300,000 people who do not participate in the economy was large for a country of 4 million, and was one of the reasons used to argue that not all refugees could be taken. Note that proportional to overall population, Switzerland took in more civilian refugees and Jews than the U.S. during WW2.

Bababoef 19:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, so i think we need to mention a couple of the things you just said to clarify what went on, just saying they "interned 300,000 people" without mentioning the congress of viena laws and neutrality policy is somewhat misleading and is too vague by itself, i think we need to state clearly that they were even required by international law to intern soldiers and citizens from the various parties in the conflict...and on the side (actually in my opinion the entire country could be considered a resort town, and id be quite happy to be interned in Saas Fee or anywhere in the Wallis/Valais actually, you woulndt see me trying to escape)...yet anyways i do think we need to mention the congress of viena laws...Benjiwolf 22:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I did some more reading, and according to the Bergier Commission report it looks like the only relevant international law was the Hague Conventions, specifically the 1907 one. This regards internment of combatants only. The Congress of Vienna just made Swiss neutrality permanent, and says nothing about refugees. The treatment of civilian refugees was a matter of Swiss law and policy only. Not international law, really. Reading the report, it seems that some civilians were interned as well. This was because almost all of them were in the country illegally. It was up to the cantonal police to decide what to do with them. Some cantons were more lenient than others and issued "tolerance permits". At the peak there were 115,000 refugees in the country. Text has been changed accordingly Bababoef 06:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

[edit] Swiss Parliament not a legislature?

Under the heading, "Politics", we find (as of 27 Feb. 2007) the following puzzling statements: "The...parliament,...has administrative and judicial, but not legislative powers. The power to legislate is delegated to the two Chambers of Parliament..." Are there any experts available to clarify this? Thank you.Writtenright 22:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)Writtenright

I find that weird, too. Dunno who wrote it, but I modified that section so it makes more sense. I included a reference to the website of the Swiss Federal Dept of Foreign Affairs where things are explained. Bababoef 08:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral?

Should we tag the neutrality of this article (Switzerland) as not disputed? Hehehe, sorry. I made a joke :/. GofG _|^|_| Talk 17:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)