Talk:Swaminarayan Sampraday
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[edit] Re-structuring the article
Jai Swaminarayan to all devotees,
I would like to request all users who have an interest and knowledge of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to add their input to this discussion. I have copied, pasted and edited sections and come up with a rough draft, which is nowhere near complete. However we could use it as a basis or an aid to re-structure the actual article. Rather than personal edits if we present ideas on the page and then if we come to a concensus then we can implement the changes. Your co-operation is much appreciated.
Haribhagat 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Haribhagat
I think that’s a good point you have made about continues communication between all of us but what kinds of things or information do we need to improve the page if you can list out some sub headings maybe we can work on in it and also I have a question about the following quote “However, in the publication, Sri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, Adbhutanand Swami has written, "Maharaj introduced the holy names of Swami & Narayan," which lends to the belief of two entities embedded within the Swaminarayan mantra itself” Is this really justified?
Ek Satsangi
Jai Swaminarayan,
The quote in question is an edit by a BAPS devotee Moksha88. He is vandalising the page and trying to propagate his personal philosphy(BAPS) on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page. I will be informing the admin users about his behaviour.
Haribhagat 14:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan guys
I must agree with Haribhagat on this its very unfair to state such quotations which are not justified and ones which propagate your BAPS faith also might I add its very unfair as well because there is noting like this quotation stated on the BAPS so why bring here without being discussed and also I have two questions for you Moksha88, with all respect given wherever due “why is there very little information about the origin, authenticity and believes of BAPS on the BAPS page? And second question is please explain to me your eplaination of the Vachanamrut - Gadhada First Prakhan 41? Thanks
Das No Das Raj - सनातन धर्म 15:24, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan,
As for my edit, it was not right for me to "vandalize" on your page as you so stated. Raj, there's a brief origin section on the BAPS page, but it needs to be expanded. I will put that quote there then; by the way, that publication, Shri Hari nu Adbhut Varta, has been released by the Amdavad Gadi, so do read it when you get a chance.
Moksha88 19:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no cause for throwing around accusations of vandalism - there has been an equal edit-warring undertaken by both Moksha88 and Haribhagat, AFAIK. Let's just stick to discussing how best to improve the article. Sfacets 14:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bhagwan Swaminarayan
Jai Swaminarayan,
With the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page now looking adequate enough, i would now like to request users to turn their attention to the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page. We must get a section on tha page which states that Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up a Sampradaya and the Key components of the Sampradaya(ie Murti, Acharyas, Shastras, Sant, Haribhaktos). At the moment it is lacking this information therefore making it incomplete. Now users of the BAPS sect are dead against this as it does not go to their liking, but we must make sure that the inclusion of this information is agreed. Remember the article should represent quality and accurate information which we should endeavour to provide. It does not need to be long but should explain the basics. I have challenged various users on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page and they seem to have backed down on the points which i make. I have also posted the same to Sfacets talk page and as of yet there has been no reply. If we could re-emphasise the point with the backing of a few users (Which requires you to register) then our proposal will have more effect. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 12:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Questions/Queries
It had been decided some time back for the page Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday to be merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan why are people going against this now please can this be done because the Acharya's section is very much to do with the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page so why are you now splitting it up??
It has now been decided (see discussion on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan article) to split it. Please do not add information already found there to this article, sign in and/or sign your comments. Thanks, Sfacets 04:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Why does the Sfacets user keep changing this page to his benifit either he has a hidden which is he is a member of the BAPS group or he just does not like the Original Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday because this sampraday is all about Bhagwan Swaminarayan so why do you keep removing the info mation that was first placed on the Shree Swaminarayan Sampraday, than merged with Bhagwan Swaminarayan so if anything we should have a right on these writing because they were created by our devotees and unlike BAPS this is whom we are we preach about Bhagwan Swaminarayan full stop we do make our so called brand name bigger like the BAPS so please can you stop doing this.
Please read the discussion on Bhagwan Swaminarayan, here is an article for:
- BAPS
- Swaminarayan Sampraday
- Bhagwan Swaminarayan
So what's the problem? Please sign your comments. Sfacets 10:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Sfacets, you're ignorance yet again prevails. Haribhagat on a number of occasions has put across his point(which you in fact have not replied back to on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page) Now let me re-iterate, Bhagwan Swaminarayan is the Swaminarayan Sampradaya he created it and he was the leader. He enforced that only this was his philosophy and those who did not follow that particular sect which he set up then they were to be regarded as outcastes(please read Shikshapatri slokh 207 - this is a book written by Bhagwan Swaminarayan). So why do you keep on ranting on about neutrality and all this other nonsense, it is clear that you have sided with moksha88(who is a staunch BAPS devotee and could not bear the fact that the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page was being written from the original scriptures of Swaminarayan rather than those of his own cult) You dont seem to know anything about Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his philosophy yet you seem to have taken the whole page/project upon yourself(supposedly to keep a NPOV) Yes Sfacets you are doing a great job you are portraying the page from one point of view and not actually including vital points and facts. Surely Wikipedias aim is to get quality and accurate information as opposed to biased and one sided information whom you seem to be siding with, perhaps because moksha88 begged you to do so. so you being the ever so knowledgeable person about Swaminarayan Bhagwan and his philosophy agreed and accepted everything moksha88 said) Great now show me the evidence? Back everything in that article with scriptural facts and point out the most vital instances in Bhagwan Swaminarayans life! Fact is Moksha88 a BAPS devotee will do it in his own way but will not give correct information yet the devotees of Swaminarayan Sampradaya set up by Swaminarayan Bhagwan will be able to give you accurate information backed up with scriptural evidence. Quite simple Swaminarayan Sampradaya was set up by Bhagwan Swaminarayan(an instance in his life - should be noted) also he set up Acharyas(an instance in his life - should be noted) Now if BAPS say if they talk about their sect why cant then all you have to say is, we are talking about Bhagwan Swaminarayans life. BAPS can have their little link at the bottom under see also but they do not appear anywhere in the life of Bhagwan Swaminarayan whereas Swaminarayan Sampradaya does. Quite simple dont you think Sfacets? Have a think about my comments, please do not gfet wound up by them. They are being made aggresively to make a point which at the moment seems to be unheard. Finally unsigned messages still can be answered/replied back to, unless you do not have a reply just like you did not have a reply for Haribhagats comments nor did any of the BAPS devotees! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.136.41 (talk • contribs).
This is an Encyclopedia, and is not based on religious scripture, but fact (scriptural facts is an oxymoron). Neutrality is nonsense? Maybe to you, not to any other (serious) editor on Wikipedia. Stop attempting to get your POV across, thi isn't the place for that, may I suggest a forum where you can settle your "philosophical" squabbles. For now it is abundantly clear that the creation of three distinct articles is the most neutral and unbiased way to go about it. (how can you not see that?) - Maybe if you had joined in the discussion (which has been going on for the previous two months) instead of blindly attempting to assert your point of view, you would have been able to change things. But a consensus has been reached - and if you don't like it, explain clearly why you oppose the changes, without your whole "holier than thou" approach. I get that you believe that your path is the true path, and that you don't like BAPS. Fine! Frankly, I don't care. Either join the discussion with intelligible arguments, or go and find something else to do with your time. And for crying out loud, sign your name! Sfacets 23:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Links
Look, I'm not too happy either that the BAPS link has to be on this page, but as long as the link to this article is on the BAPS page, the BAPS link will stay UNDETERRED. Moksha88 14:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan Moksha88
I'd like to ask you what you mean by that last comment because to me it sounded as if you don’t want to be associated with the Original Swaminarayan Sampraday which Bhagwan Swaminarayan created? This would look very odd for somebody whom calls himself a Swaminarayan Satsangi????
Raj - सनातन धर्म 20:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Jai Swaminarayan
Moksha88, the feeling is mutual. Raj it would be pointless to discuss this point as moksha88 has made his views clear on the Bhagwan Swaminarayan talk page. Forget about it and let us now concentrate on the task at hand, which is to improve the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article.
Haribhagat 15:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from adding any "additional description" to the BAPS link on this page as well as the Original Sampraday link on the BAPS page. If you truly wish to avoid edit wars, like you stated in the other articles, then this would be the best route to accomplish that.
Moksha88 11:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] BAPS - Offshoot - sources
Haribhagat, could you please provide sources proving your claims? Failing this, it will be removed as OR (original research). Sfacets 14:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Sfacets, yes i have a source, by the name of Raymond Brady Williams who wrote 'An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism' - (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Swaminarayan-Hinduism-Religion/dp/052165422X/sr=8-1/qid=1167676559/ref=sr_1_1/002-8895366-1552051?ie=UTF8&s=books)
I will paste a chunk from the book, chapter 2 - Growth, administration and schism (page 54).
"The split came when Swami Yagnapurush (AD 1865-1951), commonly called Shastri Maharaj , left Vadtal temple in 1906 and was expelled from the fellowship from the hastily called meeting of the sadhus. He left to establish his own group with a few ascetics and a small number of householders who supported him".
There are also other sections in this book which are commentries on past court cases between BAPS and Swaminarayan Sampradaya. The jist of it is BAPS saints go to preach at Swaminarayan Sampradaya temples and the Acharya files a case. He wins as he proves that BAPS have been ex-communicated and do not give allegiance to vadtal therefore they have no right to enter premises which belong to Swaminarayan Sampradaya.(page 57-58) (Appeal no.165 of 1940 in the court of the disctrict judge, kaira, at nadiad from decree in reg. civil suit no. 519 of 1936 of the court of the sub-judge Mr. P. B. Patel of borsad). The Judgement was given by District Judge, Mr. J.D. Kapadiya, who delivered his judgement on 29 November 1943.
Even BAPS devotees will admit that, Yagnapurush(Founder of BAPS) split from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya to set up BAPS. Granted he left of his own will but a meeting by the sect officials later reported that he had been officially excommunicated by the sect and any of his activities are to be considered to be the same, again BAPS devotees will not dispute this either.
Haribhagat 15:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good - but perhaps this information would be better on the main Bhagwan Swaminarayan article or in the BAPS article? There is no need to add a description to the see also link as such. Sfacets 15:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree, i did so in the past on the BAPS page but Moksha88 prevented me from doing so by reverting the article. If i am permitted i would like to go about editing the 3 articles - Bhagwan Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan Sampradaya and BAPS. I will only edit parts which need to be edited and will provide references at all times if needed. Also i have placed posts on your talk page about editing the Bhagwan Swaminarayan page, to add a section about the sect which Bhagwan Swaminarayan set up. I will be more than happy to provide references to save disputes regarding the issue. Let me know what you think.
Haribhagat 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The important distinction is that Shastriji Maharaj first left and was then later declared excommunicated by the Swaminarayan Sampraday. A section on the 'Origins of BAPS' is in the works which will have full citations. Moksha88 00:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not feel tat a description is needed next to the link to the BAPS article, however there may be merit to including it in the BAPS article itself - including the sources, and insuring that the description is given in a NPOV manner. Sfacets 06:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not see the harm, it is stating the fact and how the actual sampradaya feels about the group. In my opinion, those who are interested in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya should know about this information. Either let it be as a link description or i could add a section to the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article, as i cannot see users agreeing for that information to be placed on the BAPS page.
Haribhagat 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Haribhagat, you said that the link description shoudl stand as it describes "how the actual sampradaya feels about the group," but Wikipedia adheres to NPOV. Just as the link to this article on the BAPS page has no extra description for "clarification" and just as it is not separated with a space, the BAPS link should be left alone in a similar fashion. Moksha88 03:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps i did not put it correctly, it may be how they feel but more importantly than that it is a fact. One which has been aceepted by the high court, so for that reason in context of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya i feel it should be mentioned. Now i am willing to leave it at that, but if you wish to pursue then i will remove the description and create a title heading. In which i will explain the differences and then i could add a similar section on the BAPS page as it directly applies, let me know what you think. With the link on the BAPS page, i was meaning to add a description but due to this petty editing war i thought i would wait until it calms down and then go about editing it.
Haribhagat 15:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sources/context
The article currently contains one source. This is not acceptable, since it means that the vast majority of the article is Original research (WP:OR). Sources should be supplied for any claim.
The context and terminology is ill-defined - some users may fnd this article confusing.
Please do not remove the templates. Sfacets 00:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Jay Swaminarayan All
Hello guys nice to be back, I was away most of the time due me finishing my studies but anyway enough of that. I like how both the “Bhagwan Swaminarayan” page and “Swaminarayan Sampraday” pages are looking, I understand there are a few minor bits to work on as stated by SFacts, such there only being one reference but is that really a issue if so than please Sfacts state which parts are needing a reference and I do accept your second point of this page being a little confusing to a person whom has no knowledge of Bhagwan Swaminarayan or his Sampraday, so I will put forward this issue we will tackle it rest assure if there is anything else not up to your or anyone else’s satisfaction than feel free to state on this discussion board but under NO circumstances should you take it upon your selves to implement the changes you feel are needed.
