Talk:Surrealism

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	To-do list for Surrealism:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Add pictures Add references Make this into a featured article! Add a section on "Contemporary surrealism", or "21st century surrealism" as appropriate Make a Surrealism and media page Double check the sources quoted in the article

Contents 1 Previous discussion 2 Automatism? 3 Straw Poll 4 Should there be an article on contemporary surrealism? 5 Impact on Literature 6 Merge Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts 7 Automatism Section? 8 Surrealist Groups and their notability?

[edit] Previous discussion

Talk:Surrealism/Archive 09/contents:

• First Paragraph Rewrite, Definiton of Surrealism
• History of Surrealism
• Surrealism in the Arts rewrite
• Surrealism in theater correction
• Feminist Critique?
• External Links
• Request For Comment: NPOV link dispute
• Mediation Cabal
• Links
• Surrealism and its history after Breton died
• Hi everyone!
• Just to put the case in perspective
• Surrealism in the arts section
• FYI
• Frank McCort and the dublin surrealist group from 1979
• Sparkit, why did you remove the SURREALCOCONUT Link
• Simulated reality

[edit] Automatism?

Can there be an added section on Automatism?Overwork 23:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

As I recall the sub-articles, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts, touch on automatism. And there's the article, Surrealist automatism. --sparkit^TALK 14:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Straw Poll

[edit] Should there be an article on contemporary surrealism?

Should there be an article on contemporary surrealism? Or does it end in the late 1960's as all the history books say.Worldeater 18:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Impact on Literature

I feel like I've stepped into something that's a big mess (which is kind of appropriate to Surrealism) but I couldn't find any mention of Surrealism's impact on literature which is quite significant. I didn't know whether to put it on just the "Surrealism" page or "History of Surrealism" which also has a duplicate of the "Impact" section without the Giger stuff (by the way, is Giger really all that significant? I like him, but is one of the significant impacts of Surrealism the guy who designed the Alien? I'm not saying take him off but I can think of about a dozen things not on this page that are more significant than Giger). I thought maybe it should go in the "Surrealism in the Arts" thing under the literature and poetry section, but that would seem kind of random. I think Surrealism's impact on literature (and I would say impact on art, but I'm an English teacher so I can't really say anything with authority) is definitely significant enough to have up here. And I had a beef with the "existentialism" page because they were making it seem like Ionesco was an existentialist. Ionesco hated existentialism and considered Surrealism to be his biggest influence. Anyway, I put something basic up there -- feel free to cut it out or put it in the appropriate place because I couldn't for the life of me figure out the appropriate place.

F. Simon Grant 19:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A whole lot of the "impact" stuff doesn't make sense without the history being here.

I propose we join Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts back together. --sparkit^TALK 15:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts

Discussion of merging Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts:

• Support. Not only am I in favor of merging these articles, I would really like to rewrite the main Surrealism article. The insistence that surrealism is primarily a political movement and secondarily an artistic movement is weird. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Surrealism is "multidisciplinary", with artistic expression being only one component of surrealist intervention. Unfortunately, most of the world only cares about surrealism's artistic contributions, while ignoring all the rest. The danger of having only one article is that the art-bias will overpower everything else.--TextureSavant 17:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

But this is what I'm talking about. If "most of the world" (i.e., most reliable sources) conceives of surrealism as an artistic movement, then Wikipedia must follow suit. To do otherwise is to give undue weight to an idiosyncratic point of view. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support. The article can most certainly — must — reflect the various points of view. Fragmenting the topic doesn't seem to me to have clarified anything. --sparkit^TALK 18:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support, it makes no sense to have the reader jump from one article to the next when he can have the information by scrolling down the page. Great care should be taken not to create a monster article though. Alf^Photoman 18:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Its really the art that stands out in the history books and also as recognized by the public. Granted, the poetry and literature is extremely important, but its the art and artists that stand out. This TextureSavant appears to be pushing a point of view about 'art bias'. I also recommend that you keep out any 'groups', I looked at these online blogs and they are not at all credible sources.Worldeater 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou, Keith. Started another sockpuppet account?--TextureSavant 20:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hunh? What are you talking about?Worldeater 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Previous problems with sock puppets and this article cause folks to be suspicious of users who only edit surrealism articles, particularly new users. --sparkit^TALK 14:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A draft merge with notes

User:Sparkit/surrealism is a draft of a merge with notes. Comments and changes to the draft are most welcome. --sparkit^TALK 19:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've merged the articles, as well as rearranged and rewritten parts of it. Hopefully it reflects the core aspects of Surrealism.

It is indeed long, but I think it's arranged such that the latter parts could be spun off into separate articles (Impact, Criticism, TV, Theatre, etc.) if need be. I already made a separate article from the "Film" section which has a lot of potential for a good size article in it's own right.

Also, considering the movement started centered around literature, the article is pretty sparse in that area.

Have at it. :) --sparkit^TALK 05:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Automatism Section?

Should there be a section on Automatism?Overwork 15:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surrealist Groups and their notability?

I have read the comments and disclaimer regarding the issues of making any edits to this article without talking to others first. Is there any notability of these surrealist groups today? I think it wise that we leave them out of the article and off of Wikipedia. All we have to go on in regards to studying them is online blogs, that does not cut it. I think we should remove that section, and mention only the Paris surrealist group and the other groups that were active from 1924 to 1969. I only mention this, because due to the nature of the Internet, its easy for anyone to claim they are in a surrealist group, then create a blog, then mention their group on Wikipedia. Remember, there are people that are studying Surrealism and we should only consider what is notable.Worldeater 22:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Any group that can show newspaper articles/books/etc... written about them is notable enough to be mentioned. dime-a-dozen blogs don't cut it. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with user T. I can accept the inclusion of The Chicago Surrealist Group and The Stockholm Surrealist group, because there does exist newspaper sources on both groups, limited yet sufficient. Its the surrealist groups with online blogs that just doesn't cut it. There is also another article on Surrealist groups, where the groups with blogs are mentioned as well. They all need to be removed except for the groups who were notable from the past, like Breton's Paris group and also the group in Britian, and a few others during Breton's lifetime. After his death, it really goes downhill from there, but the Chicago and Stockholm can hold their merits, though the sources are limited, they can stay. As T "dime-a-dozen blogs don't cut it". Lets have a consensus on this issue.Worldeater 00:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the surrealist groups that were non-notable.Worldeater 14:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

This Daniel C.Boyer is reverting my edits and calling it vandalism. All I did was remove non-notable information from the article. These groups are non-notable.Worldeater 17:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The groups themselves may or may not be particularly notable, but what is notable is that they exist and there are practicing Surrealists nearly 40 years after Breton's death. I've edited the passage to reflect that. --sparkit^TALK 20:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well done, Sparkit! The article now is suitable. By the way, when you refer to groups or any surrealists collectively or any individual surrealists, you are refering to those who work in groups, those who work soley as artists, and those work who solely as writers, or a combination thereof. What is evident is that there is a rift in the contemporary surrealist movement of today as evident in what is presented online on the Internet. When any of these parties do become notable, does that make their work worth the effort?Worldeater 20:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Also one more question out of curiousity. What are the standards that makes one a practicing Surrealist? I am just asking.Worldeater 20:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The million-dollar question! For which I don't have an answer, and I could use the million bucks. --sparkit^TALK 20:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

--sparkit would you really like to know the answer? I have it, let me know if you want it.Worldeater 21:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Keith, being an emerging internet artist and posturing oneself as a surrealist isn't enough to justify calling oneself surrealist. But I'm sure you knew that already. There are many "surrealists" out there who are nothing but artsy opportunists, who are not the least bit revolutionary.--TextureSavant 13:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Can there be a section for Automatic surreal art with food coloring?Overwork 21:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Keith, the answer is "no". Likewise, it would be tempting to add a section about peter-pansurrealism in Staten Island, but its relevance to the surrealism article would probably be dubious, at best. Methinks users Overwork and Worldeater are Keith Wigdor, the famed sockpuppeteer once known as "Classicjupiter2". If need be, another usercheck could be requested. Would you be up for that, Keith?--TextureSavant 21:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

A checkuser was already run, and was inconclusive: see WP:RFCU page on "Classicjupiter2". However, I think it's apparent from previous experience that User:Overwork and User:Worldeater are socks. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Notice his recurring fixation with getting rid of the surrealist groups links.--TextureSavant 16:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not Keith Wigdor, thank you.Worldeater 23:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Those surrealist groups are not surrealist, they are a sham.Overwork 16:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)