Talk:Superseded scientific theories

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[edit] Paleontology

There's PILES of room for Dinosaur theories (braciosaurus living underwater, pterosaurs being aquatic, and the second stegosaur brain come to mind), as well as the Aquatic Ape theory now that I think of it. Just a thought, Mr. Tachyon.

wait, there's no 2nd stegosaur brain?? :( --dan 04:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Is Newtonian mechanics really "obsolete"?

Is Newtonian mechanics really "obsolete"? The overwhelming majority of working engineers and applied scientists still rely on it to solve problems, and you know what?...it still meets their needs, most of the time. It's true classical physics has been replaced by other sciences, but it's still used in the real world, so I find it hard to hear it called "obsolete". Revolver 03:02, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Quite so. It fails under extreme conditions (or, more broadly, it succeeds under certain limited conditions that we happen to function in nearly 100% of the time), but it's commonly accepted in science and is not falsified within its own sphere. Only philosophically can it strictly be called obsolete. This make it an odd case, and might deserve a brief bit of text to this effect.
Obsolete is used in the sense of "outdated" and outdated scientifically, not obsolete in a practical useful sense. this is also stated in the article: "In some cases, the theory has been completely discarded. In other cases, the theory is still useful because it provides a description that is "good enough" for a particular situation, and is more easily used than the complete theory (often because the complete theory is too mathematically complex to be usable.)". However, perhaps a (but still useful) disclaimer on newtonian mechanics could be valid to avoid confusion (someone put one in but it was deleted). Pengo 12:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
BTW what exactly is the intent of this page? (I mean, besides flame bait, intentional or otherwise, for the holders of discredited or plain stupid theories.) Is it effectively a List page? Is it envisioned as having discursive text on obsolete theories? Dandrake 04:49, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
This is really a list page, and the "discursive text" for each theory is expected to be in their own articles. (original title of the page was "List of obsolete scientific theories").
Hopefully there will be minimal flame-age as theories that were never widely held in the first place are already to be excluded.
The point is to itemise theories which "were once commonly accepted but (for whatever reason) are no longer considered the most complete description of reality; or falsifiable theories which have been shown to be false." Hope this all clarifies things. Pengo 12:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] No theory is obsolete

An item of scientific knowledge has a domain of applicability; for example, Newton's laws, in their classical form, are used everyday by engineers to design quite practical devices like cars. The scientific method teaches that a theory can be verifiable, or falsifiable, or self-contradictory, or ..., but the temporal tag obsolete is not quite in that spirit. 169.207.90.148 07:46, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

a theory that is falsifiable can be shown to be false. if it is shown to be false it is discarded, and therefore "obsolete". self-contradictory theories would fall into this category also. the term "obsolete" means in classical, scientific sense. not in a practical sense. Pengo 12:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Neo-Lamarckism is said to be obsolete. Read Soma-to-germline feedback to see that there is still life in it and, the Weismann Barrier is also challenged.. GerardM 12:19, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What I said, above. Dandrake 22:51, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
Ever heard about fundamentalism in science? Where is the open mind? And why call it flamebait? That is not my intention. GerardM 23:04, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] the term "obsolete" and page title

Seems to be some confusion about what is meant by "obsolete". Suggestions for a better term welcomed. Please see the blurb at the start of the article for what it's (meant to) mean. i'll start a brainstorm below: Pengo 12:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Brainstorm for new titles:

  • scientifically obsolete theories (kinda odd)
  • no longer widely believed theories (too awkward)
  • falsified theories (too narrow and provocative)
  • add more
  • Incomplete scientific theories - This allows the inclusion of quantum mechanics, as Albert Einstein attempted to show, with the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox, that quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory, and also shows that Newton's laws have a limit of applicability. I.e., Newtonian mechanics is therefore incomplete. Here the boundaries of our viewpoints start to appear; we start to see how parochial are our concepts of what reality, perfection etc. May I suggest a mass-replace of obsolete with incomplete?
  • Superceded (Superceded scientific theories) - I started this article almost two years ago. I used the term "obsolete scientific theory" because I could think of no better term for it, and I put up the above request for a better name at the same time — "obsolete theory" does not come from the literature and I don't believe it to be in general usage. David Kernow recently changed one mention of obsoleted to superceded. Superceded is the word I'd been looking for: it is more neutral, clear, and broader than obsoleted. If no one objects I plan to change the title and headings to use the term "superceded" rather than "obsoleted". (Incomplete is a good suggestion, but Incomplete scientific theories would be a different article, as quantum mechanics may be incomplete, but has not been superceded, AFAIK). —Pengo 15:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] Weissmann barrier

By the way, to put the Weissmann barrier under obsolete theories, even with the qualifier that I added, is ludicrously POV. You might as well -- exacly as well -- put Evolution here, since the ID folks believe they've disproved it. It's exactly what happens when one creates a page like this: all the die-hards come out and assert that their ancient theories are not obsolete; what's obsolete is the stuff on which 99% of the science being performed in a field is based. Dandrake 02:27, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

most biology theories have exceptions. i actually put the weissmann barrier onto the page without thinking about it -- probably a mistake. so far there haven't been any real die hards trying to push their view point, and i dont think they will any time soon -- other than asking for a note to say their pet theory "isn't totally dead yet" -- and even then they hardly need to as that's being done for them. i think the real problem is how to classify theories that are still practical but otherwise disproven, or simply have minor exceptions (like weissmann's might) -- but i think that will sort itself out as the page grows.
perhaps a speculative page on what theories are on the way out would be more fun.. i mean.. controversial. Pengo 02:56, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Sorry to keep nattering about this, but it gets more interesting. The Wiki article on the barrier leads one to a Web page that is not talking neo-Lamarckian nonsense doctrine, but raising what may be a valid problem relative to gene therapy. The relation of this to the validity of the "Weissmann barrier" is very dubious, though in a way it points out the sense in which the Wb is obsolete: it's an old dictum which, though essentially correct today, represents a 19th-century understanding. Guess I'll have to work with the Wb article. Dandrake 19:40, Feb 28, 2004 (UTC)

I removed the Weismann Barrier from the list of obsolete biology theories, because it doesn't seem to fit with things like spontaneous generation and Lamarckism. If anyone objects to this, feel free to add it back in. Factitious 03:25, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Creationism

I fail to see how Creationism can be listed as an 'obsolete science', when "The Hollow Earth theory claims that the Earth is hollow, and its inside is possibly populated by a race of superbeings, humans or aliens, and possibly dinosaurs", a much less widely-held world view, is acceptable in the list of alternative, speculative and disputed theories.

Safest to leave Creationism in the list of alternative, speculative and disputed theories (where other religious or psuedo-religious theories are listed too), and remove it from the 'obsoleted' list. Tamias

Well, why is it still there? Any creationist (such as myself) could just as easily put evolution in the same place, even though the truth or falsehood of either cannot be proved. Since it is clearly POV, I have removed it. BASICwebmaster 05:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Creationism shouldn't be here simply because it was never a scientific theory. --Tothebarricades 01:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree - creationism was never a scientific theory. Bubba73 (talk), 01:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for obsolete theories of electricity

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.
This article has been tagged since January 2007.

There were several interesting but wrong (some slightly, some very) theories of electricity and magnetism. I have some references in some old college readers, but I thought someone else might be familiar with some examples (or able to find them on Google or elsewhere in the encyclopedia) before I get around to thinking about the question again (which might be several months). -- Beland 05:24, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Obsolete or not?

At the moment Geocentric model is in the Category:Obsolete scientific theories while Bohr atom is not. Both are now commonly held to be ontologically deficient but both are still useful for computation and pedagogy. Surely we should be consistent but which way? Cutler 20:43, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Universe is Obsolete?

Are you kidding me? There is ZERO proof of a multiverse. It is entirely conjecture. Conjecture which I resonate with, but not scientific knowledge. Next are you going to tell me that the 4 dimensional world is obsoleted by the 11 dimensional world? I am removing this at once. (CHF 06:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Basic spelling issue

The correct spelling, both in U.S. and U.K. English, is actually "superseded"--go ahead, look it up (I didn't believe it at first, either). But I'm a relative newcomer to Wikipedia and since the word is part of the title of this article, if I correct the spelling, it will probably mess up various links to this page. So I don't know what to do. Help? Thanks. DSatz 06:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The OED does list supercede as an alternate, but it is only quoted in 19th century texts—supersede is clearly the preferred spelling. I'll move the page. (You can read about how to do this at meta:Help:Renaming (moving) a page; it's not too hard.) Brighterorange 16:30, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] theories, hypotheses and models

Some "theories" are more properly called hypotheses (such as about the aether) and models (such as of the atom). Should such distinctions not be made here? Harald88 21:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] problem with change of definition

Someone changed the difinition of "no longer considered the most complete description of reality by mainstream [[science]" to the current one. However, a change of definition causes a changes of content. For example, the old definiton applies to ether theories, but the new one doesn't - the last ether-based (nowadays called "field") theories by Lorentz and Einstein are as accurate as can get. I think that superseded should apply to all scientific theories that are not commonly used anymore and not only to "less accurate" theories. Note also that a (metaphysical)concept such as aether (or spacetime) is not a scientific theory! Harald88 18:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] geocentric universe

right in the intro, it says that "Some theories which were only supported under specific political authorities may be included (like Lysenkoism) or may not be included (like the model of a geocentric universe)", but then down the list i see "Ptolemaic system/Geocentric universe". is ptolemaic/geocentric different from plain geocentric, or is that a mistake? --dan 04:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And He formed the earth ...

I think this has the basis of a good article but lacks the things discussed at featured list nomination above. I included expanding earth a while ago but am interested to see how this page can illustrate the formation of paradigms in science. Don't think it should be adopted by physics project only but best examples would be those. Fred.e 17:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

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