Talk:Superga air disaster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
The article on Superga air disaster is supported by the WikiProject on Football, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of football (soccer) related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ. |
|---|---|
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. |
Contents |
[edit] Italian film
an italian film has been made in 2004 or 2003 with the Superga air disaster as the context. would anyone happen to know the name? i have watched the film and loved it but do not know the name. here's my contact id: monjimasinha@hotmail.com (Unsigned edit by 203.199.38.254, November 15, 2005)
- There are a mittful of media info links at the museum page recently added in the External links section. Wiggy! 16:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Diamonds?
With just a little rooting around I was able to find a lot of material on the disaster, but nothing that comes close to the diamonds story. A BBC item identified the cause as a thunderstorm, but had nothing to say about diamonds. Definitely needs a citation, especially given its sleazy nature. Wiggy! 04:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. The paragraph ran
- "There had been suggestions that crash may have been the result of the plane deliberately flying too low over the uneven terrain. It is believed that a number of the players were smuggling diamonds from Portugal to Italy, as the stones were much less expensive in Portugal and would have made a good return in Italy. In order to avoid customs, a drop had been set up at Superga where there were accomplices waiting on the ground.”[citation needed]
- Of course it might be true. But we need references for this one. I did a sanity check with the Italian friend who first pointed out the hill to me as the site of the disaster. The response was “No, I've never heard that story about dropped diamonds mentioned anywhere. Where did you find it? But it seems hardly plausible: who on earth would have searched the glorious footballers on their landing at Turin for possiblle smuggled items? They where the stuff that dreams are made of, and as such no mortal Carabiniere would have laid his hand on them for such mundane triviality.” So I think this is a WP:Cite sources issue. Ian Spackman 14:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] On topic from the discussion page of user "Ian Spackman"
The described smuggling operation correlates for one with utterly normal procedures of those days - in my age group I can vouch for that, even more so as some relatives of mine were envolved themselves of varying smuggling operations. If you were close to the mountains in northern Italy even on worst weather days you had some family member or friend coming in from the cold with stuff in his rucksack which was brought from Austria. What was not needed for oneself was often sold to somebody who was waiting all afternoon. Bad weather was ideal, as eg. in fog you could not be seen as easily by the border patrols, which, secondly prefered to stay in themselves on such days. This scene only petered out in the late 1960s, early 1970s.
I myself travelled to Lisbon myself in the early 1980s, and remember that still then some old folks told me that this would be a good place for buying jewellry. However, times had changed long by then and the information was quite outdated. Anyway, Lisbon was worth it for its magic beauty, and my first encounter with orange cake. I also watched the cup final in the rotten Nacional Stadium, which Boavista won 1-0 against Sporting CP. Tickets were dirt cheap, obtainable on matchday, and it was not a sell-out crowd! Amazing!
Further to that, I have heard the story quite a few times, and there is also a report from gaborzinho, in real life a respected, ancient Hungarian journalist, on the web (on rsssf.com).
Thirdly, there was no reason for the plane being there in the time of the crash. The official reports offer mystery, but provide no answer.
I hope, that settles the issue. And we can leave it with that. Cheers, Oalexander-En 14:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- No problem. Cite you sources on the article page and (if they are good ones) I will forget the article altogether. In the mean time however I have moved the paragraph to the talk page. Cheers! —Ian Spackman 14:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- If my message above seemed harsh then I should mention that I am very aware that smuggling was a way of life for Italians who were able to cross borders at the time. Even to the point of smuggling stock-cubes from Switzerland! But this is a big story in European football history—like the Munich air disaster—and I do think that clear sourcing (WP:Cite) is needed. Happy editing! —Ian Spackman 14:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
- Smuggling, btw. was not only an Italian phenomenon, but all continental Europe was in it. Well, it still goes on: "black" cigarettes are still hard currency. Oalexander-En 15:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added citations for both views and restored a more encyclopedic version of the text. Wiggy! 16:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
"Wiggy", what you think is more "encyclopedic" may in other eyes look differently. Please consider the wiki stalking policies. Other issues may apply! Oalexander-En 17:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The article now presents a more balanced view respecting both sources with citations for both tales. Significant additional material has been added. Parts of the article that were directly lifted from other sources have been cleaned up (much-much?). The language of the piece has been cleaned up (much-much?). Between the lot of us the thing is much cleaner, accurate and presentable. I think its fair to describe that as a happier result. Wiggy! 17:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Exceptional claims require exceptional sources
I am still worried that we are over-emphasise the smugglers drop theory. I personally find the claim made a plausible one and I can see that gaborzinho is held in high regard on rsssf. But is this enough for Wikipedia? Let me quote from the official policy page Wikipedia:Attribution
Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim:
[…] Exceptional claims should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources, especially regarding historical events, politically charged issues, and biographies of living people.
- surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known;
- surprising or apparently important reports of recent events not covered by reliable news media;
It seems to me that, in the absence of any corroboration of his account (or even discussion of it elsewhere on the Internet or other parts of the real world), we should relegate it to a footnote reading something like
The respected Hungarian journalist [insert real name here], who was personally aquainted with a number of the Torino players, suggested in 2002 on the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics newsgroup that […insert smuggling story here]
But first we need to get his real name—and preferably the papers he wrote for, and ideally write a little article on him which demonstrates his general reliability.
I hope I am not beng too much of a kill-joy!
Anyway, very aware of my limitations in this field, I have asked the people of Wikipedia:WikiProject Football to chime in and I hereby resign from the debate! —Ian Spackman 14:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A Usenet post is not a reliable source
You must be joking if you think a Usenet post counts as a reliable source for this claim. From the attribution policy:
A questionable source is one with no editorial oversight or fact-checking process or with a poor reputation for fact-checking.
And Usenet clearly falls under this remit. Unless there's a more reliable source (there has been at least one book on the disaster, is it mentioned there?) the claim should be excised from the article. Qwghlm 16:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the diamond conspiracy (or whatever one should call it) needs more reliable sources than a post on a newsgroup from an unknown person (anyone of us could make up such a story, post it to the newsgroup under another name, and then use it as a source for a Wikipedia article). As posted above, WP:REDFLAG says that "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". WP:SPS also says that "posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or comments on blogs, should not be used as sources. This is in part because we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking." As a sidenote, the {{Cite newsgroup}} template states "Please do not apply this template to use a newsgroup post to verify content." I propose removing the paragraph unless at least one reliable source can be provided, and in such case, I propose moving the diamond conspiracy to a separate section to clearly show readers that this is not the "official" or best known or most likely story. It is an interresting theory, but we should not introduce such theories unless we have very good sources for it. – Elisson • T • C • 16:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Its way past sketchy and I've not been able to come across anything even close. It seems that smuggling was quite common at the time and that footballers often received favourable treatment at customs, so there would be no need to do some sort of Indiana Jones-type thing. I'd love to find an inexpensive copy of the book, because it looks like an interesting tale. I did come across a couple of accounts of a theory from the time of the incident of a stuck altimeter (to explain the plane being at such a low altitide), but that looks to have been ultimately discounted and smacks of desperate people trying to explain an unthinkable tragedy. Wiggy! 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
http://rsssf.com IS considered a reliable source. rsssf.com is an offshoot of the Usenet group. The post from "gaborzinho" is part of the, reasonably thin, "best of" section of the rsssf website, and has been there for many years. From this viewpoint it has certainly received an appreciable degree of peer-review. Some kind of editorial oversight can certainle be attributed to the rsssf - it is not so that the stuff has just been taken from the Usenet. It had been handled and considered in multiple ways, not the least by me, and I have acquired in a by now sufficiently long lifetime experiences as sufficient. However rarely, here I agree with "Wiggy!" and leve the final judgement to the audience, as a final proove shall probably remain elusive forever. Oalexander-En 15:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Point of clarification. If it was strictly up to me I'd take the diamond story out in a second. I simply don't find the citation at rsssf.com sufficiently credible. Sorry. It cropped up as a secondary tidbit in the context of a discussion about another player and reeks of "I heard this from a friend of a friend of a friend". From the evidence the plane was following a routine course and standard set of practises when it ran into bad weather that the crew and their equipment ultimately couldn't handle. Superga looks to be right on top of Turin and reasonably along the approach to the airport so the plane doesn't appear to be in a place it shouldn't have been. "Ultimately elusive" is too "Bermuda Triangle" in the face of a credible set of circumstances as laid out in the accident report prepared by the authorities. Kubla's tale boils down to paying some guys some money to bring back some stuff somehow. He doesn't look to have any other first hand knowledge after that. I don't see any other insight in the material from rsssf which remains, regardless of what you wrap it in, an unattributted Usenet post. I wouldn't regard it as having been through any any sort of transparent peer review process. Googling "gaborzinho" brings up a bunch of other interesting football stuff, and the guy was quite likely some sort of insider, but I don't see him stepping up to be accountable anywhere. I'd be more inclined to treat stuff from that source as the starting point for the search for credible supporting sources, and in this case they are (so far) simply not to be found. I stand by my earlier remark where I indicated that I felt the tale was a bit sleazy in nature and gotta add that I think it does something of a disservice to the memory of the squad. Wiggy! 16:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we should make a distinction between RSSSF's excellent statistics section (which does often cite its references) and the "Best of rec.sport.soccer" section, which is just a series of copy & pastes from the newsgroup, and the contributors to each part differ widely (look deep enough and you'll find myself in there); there is no editorial policy stated (as far as I can see), nor any means of recourse. It is certainly not an exceptional enough source to support an exceptional claim. Qwghlm 11:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- I totally object to having a debate between a Qwghlm and a Wiggy: how is my brain-of-a-little-bear expected to keep track of it?! But I do see no argument against moving the section here for a while, until the veracity and significance of the diamond-drop claim is elucidated a bit. I should say that I don’t find it inherently implausible. But I do think that Wikipedia is—how boring—intended to an account of what is pretty uncontroversial. And this claim is just odd and single-sourced. Remember that the Superga story is even bigger than that of the Busby Babes. (Oddly the disaster sites were equally symbolic.) But somehow it has failed to propagate. Currently we don’t even have a real-world name for the claim of this journalist. So I’ll be bold and move it here. —Ian Spackman 11:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Diamond drop theory
For reasons outlined above, noting that this is a boring collaborative encyclopedia rather than a juicy personal homepage, I am moving the following here.
- A plan to smuggle diamonds may have put the plane in the vicinity of the town. It is believed that a number of the players were carrying diamonds from Portugal to Italy, as the stones were much less expensive in Portugal and would have made a good return in Italy. In order to avoid customs, a drop had been set up at Superga where there were accomplices waiting on the ground.[1] [verification needed]
—Ian Spackman 11:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
