Talk:Sunderland

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 Sunderland was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 2007-03-06
Former FA Sunderland is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article Milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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To-do list for Sunderland: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh


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  • Verify: Thoroughly use the citation templates so that every fact is referenced accurately.
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Contents

[edit] Featured Article - Clean-Up

Not quite sure why this article was nominated for Feature Article status, but we might as well use it as a reason to perform some spring-cleaning. I've made a first-pass effort, focusing on stripping-out poorly written sentences, POV, obvious original material, unreferenced and uncited work. I've tried to generally reduce the overall size of the article, and I've managed to get rid of a chunk of the 'trivia' facts. Summary of changes:

  • Moved the Wearmouth bridge picture to the top right of the article. Many of the articles of large cities (i.e. London, New York City) have an iconic picture in this location.
  • fine-tuned the population paragraph with some citations.
  • Stripped down the 'Mackem' definition, as this is simply a duplication of large parts of the Mackem article itself.
  • Cleaned up the geography section.
  • Added a citation about the rememberance day memorial.
  • Added citations to the history section, i.e. origin of name.
  • Moved 'Cholera started in Sunderland' fact into main history section and expanded. Added source to references at bottom of page.
  • Stripped out the 'Political Boundaries'section, as it as duplicate of a section on the City of Sunderland (borough) article. As a result, I have also taken out the two politics-related trivia facts and moved them over.
  • Taken out the 'Doxford Disaster of 1966' section, as I can't find a reference to this anywhere. If someone can find one, then by all means put it back - but it should probably go in the history section.
  • The amenities section was poorly written, and talked mainly about the pubs and clubs in the area. It added no real value and was unreferenced, so I removed it.
  • The 'current Socio-Economic Development' section needed (and still needs) a big clean-up. I have removed unecessary lists of things such as shops in the Bridges and companies at Doxford International. I've added a citation for the Empire being the biggest theatre in the region. I've removed some POV regarding underground music and the fact big bands are 'unlikely' to return. The biggest section I removed was the 'impact of Sunderland AFC on the community'. This was largely POV and written like Original Research (attributing the resurgance in Sunderland to the success of the team). It was in a non-encylopedic tone, and repeated large chunks of the article anyway.
  • Removed POV from the Transport section and added citations for the cutting of Metro services and Park Lane being the 2nd busiest bus station in the UK.

John the mackem 01:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, John. Big improvements. We'll have to disperse the 'Other facts' section, because it's just a random collection at the moment. Why are there both 'notes' and 'references' sections? The current 'reference' section should be turned into inline citations as the relevant points, so that they an be cross-referenced like the others.
We should be able to get it up to GA. The JPStalk to me 11:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks JPS. The References \ Notes thing is something I have seen on other articles. Basically, the Notes section is direct in-line citations, while the References section is sources that have been used as background material for whole topics, rather than indivudal quotes. I suppose it's a little like a References \ Bibiliography you would add to the end of an essay. I'm not sure what the formal Wiki standard is - feel free to change as appropriate.
I agree about the the trivia facts - but I have tried where possible to merge into the article. I have an idea of turning the Media section into "Culture, Media & Sport" and dumping the T.S. Elliot, Lowry, and "Malice in Sunderland" trivia facts into there. What do you think? John the mackem 12:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Mmm, still not convinced about the notes/references thing... Essays shouldn't have separate bibliography/references sections either: that's a myth perpetrated by FE lecturers who don't understand the Harvard System properly.
According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities, the layout should be:
  • Introduction
  • History
  • major historical events that occurred in city
  • Law and government
  • Mayor or City Executive-- current, previous executives
  • representative body?
  • Geography
  • Physical geography (area, unique features)
  • Major Parks
  • Economy
  • Major industries/products
  • taxes
  • Demographics
  • city population
  • racial/ethnic makeup
  • religious makeup
  • Sites of interest
  • Colleges and universities
  • Sports teams
  • Notable natives
  • (Miscellaneous topics and similar lists)
  • External links
The NuT article is sort-of following this. Sheffield is a FA, so I guess we should look at that as a guide. The JPStalk to me 12:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The Newcastle article seems a bit too waffly for me - and I think the Gallery is a bit over-the-top. The Sheffield one is very good though, strikes just the right balance I think. Good article to base Sunderland on.
I'll dig out some facts and figures and have a second-pass when I next get some spare time. As for the References\Notes, i'm quite happy for you to change it to the way it should be. John the mackem 12:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a look at the NuT article today and it's a bit fragmented. Would you like those references to be moved to the inline citations, rather than them being deleted? The JPStalk to me 18:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


Ok, so the artle has now gone through a few dozen updates and is almost in line with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities. I've purposely left out the Local government and politics section as this clashes with the City of Sunderland article - a trend that runs throughout this article... For further improvements - in my opinion, the History section needs to be expanded and split into a 'History of Sunderland' article as it's a bit fragmented. At the very least, we could do with a good historical image. The Economy and Industry section could probably do with a tweak as well. Beyond that, I am open to suggestions as to how we can make this better? John the mackem 16:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A19 bridge

John the mackem. Are you sure the A19 bridge is within the City?. Regardless of the parish boundaries, I would say that the A19 bridge is outside the City. It overlooks Hylton to the East, but it is well outside the City itself. Bob BScar23625 13:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair question. I think it falls within the ward boundaries that mark the Sunderland urban area, and probably marks the outer-edge of the city. As Penshaw Monument is to the west of the A19, if we are classing the monument as part of Sunderland, then the A19 would be too. Depends which definition of the word 'city' you are using. John the mackem 13:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

John. I am not going to the barricades over it, but the A19 bridge is outside the City, by any conventional standard. Bob BScar23625 14:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If Penshaw Monument is included then surely the A19 bridge must also be within the boundaries? The JPStalk to me 14:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. The Penshaw Monument is a conspicuous local feature visible from several points within the City. It is also used as a vantage point from which to view the City. Just upstream from the A19 bridge is the Victoria Viaduct which carries the Leamside Branch over the river. I would say that the Penshaw Monument is feature of the City whereas the A19 bridge and the Victoria viaduct are not features. Bob BScar23625 16:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

lol. An inspired explanation. The JPStalk to me 17:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. Well, let me put it another way. Does the A19 bridge "connect the two halves of the City"?. I suggest that the answer is "no" since it carries a by-pass road around the edge of the City. Bob BScar23625 17:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Where can evidence of the boundaries of the city be found? The JPStalk to me 17:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. I am not too fussed about the precise boundaries of the City. The point is that there are only two road bridges connecting the North and South sides of the City. Nobody travelling from (say) Grangetown to Millfield would go round by the A19 bridge. The A19 is a by-pass road carrying traffic around the City. Bob BScar23625 18:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

ps : While I am on, I notice that you have nominated Jaws 3 for Good Article status. I once sat through much of Jaws 3 and found it to be almost the worst film I have ever seen. I might fail your Jaws 3 article on that ground. BScar23625 18:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If you were travelling from Hylton to Pennywell or Grindon then I would say you would be more likely to take the A19 - in that respect, it does connect the two halves of the city. I think there needs to be a level of consistency in our explanation... there is already a high level of confusion over what goes into Sunderland article and what goes into the City of Sunderland met borough article.
The boundary of the Sunderland urban area is fairly vague (I took the ward population stats from here), but we should stick to that as a basis for inclusion - otherwise it just becomes us, as people from the area, arbitrarily picking what we think is in Sunderland and what isn't. No? John the mackem 18:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

John. I take it the journey you refer to is from North Hylton to Pennywell?. I guess that, depending on exactly where in North Hylton and Pennywell the journey starts and ends, you might go round by the A19. But that is the most extreme case which accounts for far less than 1% of North-South journeys within the City. I maintain that the A19 bridge does not connect the North and South sides of Sunderland. Perhaps I am being pedantic?. Bob BScar23625 18:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to be fussed over the precise boundaries of the city. It is in the spirit of a sourced encyclopedia. Common knowledge and assertions of 'conventional standards' are not within our remit. p.s. I am guessing that you are joking about failing Jaws 3 because you didn't like it. The JPStalk to me 10:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. The article refers to road bridges "connecting the two halves of the City" and my contention is that only the QA and Monkwearmouth bridges do this. If the article were to refer to "local road bridges crossing the River Wear" then the A19 bridge comes within the latter definition.

The only films I have ever seen that are worse than Jaws 3 are classic stinkers like "Plan 9 from Outer Space" and "The Wild Women of Wongo". Plan 9 is so bad that they have even made documentary about it and a film about the making of it. I can see why there might be a Good Article on Plan 9 - but Jaws 3 ...?. Bob BScar23625 14:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the GA criteria. One's mere opinion on the subject is irrelevant to GA status. Indeed, several of the Halloween sequels (not generally considered to be the best in the world) have articles at featured status. The JPStalk to me 14:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. Notability criteria are relevant here. A Good Article should relate to a film that is notable - either by being a good film or by being so bad that it becomes notable for that fact alone. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 18:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. There are very clear standards for Good Article status, and subjective opinions over a film's merit are not part of them, whether you like it or not. The JPStalk to me 18:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

As the bridge was built to bypass the County borough of Sunderland to the west, and there is a vast area of the City west of the bridge and the renamed A19 the problem is in defining the City - which is the whole of the metropolitan district created in 1974 and granted city status in 1992, and the former county borough.GarryQ12:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Garry. Maybe so, but by any standards of common sense the A19 bridge does not connect two halves of Sunderland. It carries the city by-pass. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 15:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Common sense" is a rhetorical concept. It has no factual standing. The JPStalk to me 17:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

JPS. Well, I guess that you and I must part company altogether at this point. regards. Bob BScar23625 17:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] B-Class

The article has been rated B-Class, although most of the negative comments seem to revolve around the fact we haven't used the city infobox. In my opinion, the city infobox is too American-biased, which is why most British cities have a different version. Oh well. Anyone got any suggestion on how to go forward, or should we request a reassesment!? :-) John the mackem 20:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment Discussion

Sunderland - has undergone major rework over the last month. Advice on further improvements would be appreciated. Our target is GA quality. John the mackem 17:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Alan, thanks for your comments. Most of the negative marks seem to revolve around the use of a infobox different from {{Infobox City}}. Sunderland uses {{Infobox England place}} which is the 'standard' for all towns and cities in England outside of central London, with the exceptions of cities which double as Metropolitan Boroughs which use a different template (i.e. Sheffield which is a Featured Article). I believe the reason is that {{Infobox City}} is considered too North-American-biased. If the Assessment is based on this sort of criteria, does this mean that no English city can ever be higher than B? If I want to push Sunderland to GA, do I have to reject the English template and adopt {{Infobox City}}? Incidentally, English cities generally don't have flags, and the seals and coat of arms belong to the metropolitan borough of the City of Sunderland rather than the Sunderland urban area. Incredibly confusing I know, but herein lies the problem of trying to categorise all the different 'types' of city all over the world into one infobox. John the mackem 20:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I used infobox City as an example. If you read my comments you will note that the underlying assertion is that the facts stated do not have their references cited. I suggest {{Infobox City}} for usage because it is the product of group collaboration and contains much of the information reviewers seek when examining an article. I make this reference because {{Infobox City}} includes what I like to see in an article. If your template or table has a method of presenting the references, I encourage you to use it. Alan.ca 21:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

The most ethnically diverse ward of the city is the Thornholme area - just to the south of the city centre, an area that includes the suburbs of Ashbrooke and Eden Vale. Here, 89.4% are white, 7.8% are Asian and 1.3% are mixed-race.

I removed this as the ward was abolished in 2004. The majority of the Asian population in the ward live in an area now transferred to Hendon ward, but I have no details of the population breakdown for the post-2004 Hendon Ward. --garryq 14:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Most demographic stats are based on the previous census, in this case 2001. I think this section adds value so I have replaced it - though in recognising the point about the ward no longer existing, I have amended the text accordingly. John the mackem 15:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] GA Review

I've placed the review on hold. It's made a lot of progress, but I think it needs some more work in places. Detailed comments:

  • It needs copyediting (though I am American, and not completely familiar with the intricacies of usage in British English, so feel free to correct me). There are spots in the article where grammar is incorrect, or perhaps simply confusing to the reader. Specifically:
  • "likely to be reference to the valley carved by the river Wear" might be better as "likely in reference to..."
  • "Sunderland is divided into two by the River Wear which passes through the middle of the city in a deeply incised valley, part of which is known as the Hylton gorge," is one example of a sentence missing a comma, here between 'Wear' and 'which'. Please read through on the copyedit with an eye out for clauses lacking commas.
  • "In actual fact this is not the case for the urban area called Sunderland..." is one example of sentences with extra words that could be removed while still maintaining the meaning of the sentence. This sentence could begin "In fact this is not the case..."
  • "The area of Castletown is made up of 99.3% white, 0.4% Asian and 0.2% mixed-race," could be better put as "The area of Castletown is 99.3% white..."
  • While GA does not absolutely require in-line citation, in an article of this length they should appear at least once per section. The following sections or sub-sections lack citation: Status; Geography; Ethnicity; Religion; 17th and 18th Centuries; Media, film, and television; Sport; Road; Cycle.
  • With regard to the section on famous residents, please see Wikipedia:Embedded list.

And I would be remiss if I did not mention the article's strengths, which include the broad coverage of the topic and the inclusion of excellent images. Let me know on my talk page when the edits are done. Good work so far. Mocko13 23:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Some guidelines were mentioned previously on this talk as to ordering of content on city articles. However, UK Geography WikiProject offers alternate guidelines which may be more appropriate and consistent with other UK cities, towns and settlements. They are found at this page. Hope they help the article in achieving GA. Jhamez84 23:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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