Talk:Suit (clothing)
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I'd like to see a history of the suit. I'm curious where its roots lie - User:popefelix
[edit] Suit Color?
I've heard from a number of sources (not really fashion gurus, but people that wear suits pretty much every day of the week) that navy blue suits aren't really "in" for men in the business world these days. The preference has shifted to black. The suit color section says otherwise; it doesn't have a definite source, but then, neither do i. can anyone point me towards a source for a popular consensus on this matter? Zoffoperskof 08:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History
Here is a brief quote that answers your question:
"Charles, following the example of the court of Louis XIV at Versailles decreed in 1666 that at court, men were to wear a long coat or jacket, a waistcoat (originally called a petticoat, a term which later became applied solely to women's dress), a cravat (ancestor of the modern necktie) a wig, and breeches or trousers gathered at the knee, as well as a hat for outdoor wear."
The above quote is contained in the following article:
http://www.answers.com/topic/suit-clothes
Aha. How can Charles II be said to have caused a revolution, when all he did was copying the French coat? Seems to me that Louis XIV was the innovator. I'm going to delete that statement, if nobody objects. Dkviking 09:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- Circular argument. :-) The Answers.com article is from Wikipedia - almost everything there is.
- Charles may have got the idea of the coat from Louis XIV's justacorps a brevet - scholars disagree - but he mandated the costume as required wear at the English court and in its earliest version it was rather different from what was worn in France at that time, being based also on Russian and/or Turkish costume. There is much discussion of the origins of Charles's new "suit" in Ribeiro, Aileen: Fashion and Fiction: Dress in Art and Lierature in Stuart England, Yale, 2005, ISBN 0-300-10999-7. Still, the majority of costume historians point to Charles's coat, vest, and breeches as the origin of the modern 3-piece suit. - PKM 08:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discomfort in a suit
I'm the person who just added a bunch to the suit discussion about suit etiquette...and I kind of agree with the above comment, strict adherence to suits is a bit ridiculous. For instance, I think its strange to make college students wear suits...I think they are a bit young, and it looks strange. At the same time, I'd probably chide the professor for wearing his suit improperly though (if only in my mind). I also kind of wish their weren't social norms for dress code, I'd rather everyone just wear what they want to wear...(in my case that would be a suit with attention to traditional ediquette, ironically).
One thing though...there are very light-weight suits available for hot weather. Ones that are a large portion cotton or silk as opposed to wool. I think tan suits are traditionally acceptable in hot climates. Also, seersucker fabric is increadibly light-weight and breathable, and at least used to be made into suits (I don't know if it still is). It is as breathable as a T-Shirt I am told. Although, I have to admit I'm not sure how appropriate seersucker is considered at this point (I'm young), I haven't actually ever seen it in person except for once.
[edit] Suit Etiquette
Re-did this section. I removed a large portion of the disclaimer and some other stuff. It seemed very POV, stating over and over again that Europe was more conservative than America. That may well be true, but the article is about suits. =| If my edit was out of line, feel free to revert. --Jen Moakler 23:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have re-edited the etiquette section as well with greater detail and addressing certain omissions. I also changed the wording to make it more explicitly oriented towards a contemporary-conservative viewpoint than a "traditional" one, though I have retained much of that wording. Traditional is a word that can be very misleading--technically, paisley and foulard are traditional, but few people would consider them especially conservative by today's standards. Garters on socks are also traditional, but where can you find those? And what about bow ties (I mean, I know where you can find those, but who wears them other than Tucker Carlson)? Also, there were distinct errors about how one properly buttons a double-breasted suit (they are not normally cut to have both to-buttons fastened and the tailoring would turn out strange if one had it fitted with both buttons fastened). Also, the issue of the black suit needed further elaboration, as did the color of shoes, accessories and socks. I made the leap of mentioning contemporary conservative standards because, while they will eventually need to be updated once fashion makes a significant enough shift, the information should actually be useful in a current context, I feel, or there is no point in having a section like "etiquette" which is clearly only there for application is a social milleau. Also, regarding the comments on a previous edit, this was written from an American (N)POV, but most of this is widely applicable beyond the United States because this isn't about hyper-specifc things like what vents are in fashion. Thanks, Chris [still haven't registered...] 22:53, 25 March 2005
- Good edits, Chris. I have broken your new material into subsections and linked to other Wikipedia artcles. Since you seem to know something about traditional menswear, you might want to take a look at shirt and collar (clothing) - they could use some cleanup. PKM 20:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Follow up
Not at all, thank you very much for editing it, it looks much better now! I wrote the article on a whim in about 5 minutes late at night in a hotel room...and greatly appreciate someone cleaning it up for me!
[edit] History of the suit
I cleaned up the article a little and added a considerable history of the business suit, drawing on what I know of the history of men's dress. I'm just an amateur, but I believe the information is correct- any edits would be helpful. I also added a small paragraph on the symbolic rejection of the suit by some non-European political leaders.
I quite like wearing a suit myself, and would probably do so even if I didn't need to, but times have changed. As a casual alternative, I like wearing a sport coat- it is the male equivalent of a woman's purse. You can hold so much in it, and a good one can be worn with practically any clothing.
SR, 17/04/05.
(suit-etiquette person). yeah I should totally get a logon...any way, I think I'd like a literal purse, it would seem handy at some times, a nice louis vuitton one is somewhat masculine, at least for a purse that is. Although obviously...I would not carry around my purse when wearing a suit in a "respectful or formal manner"!
[edit] Wot no suit!?
In the UK, and all of Europe, I am seeing the suit just disappear, and I hate it: I shall always wear a suit. I know people who get fined every Friday by their colleagues for wearing a suit! I know that people are relaxed about this in the US and let me report from the Old World to those of you of the New: things are like that here, now. There are a few bastions, though: the City, for example. Bureaucrats in France seem to adhere perfectly to traditional suit etiquette, but MPs in the UK do not. Black suits and red ties--argh！
Frankly, that is a small consolation.[[User:Zhengfu|Zhengfu (talk)]] 15:09:19, 2005-07-27 (UTC)
- If it's any consolation, I work at a movie studio in California - which is about as casual as it gets - and many of the executives and all the lawyers and accountants wear suits, at least several days a week. PKM 04:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Mao Suit
The "Mao Suit" is not of Mao Zedong's devising. The linked article itself explains it. Unless I'm not aware of a particular definition of "to devise", I think this should be corrected. 12:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] How to wear a suit
Hi, I'm the person who started what was once a very sloppy section of traditional suit etiquette...which I see now has been improved upon to an amazing degree! Thanks everyone!!!!
I did some very minor editing:
1.) Dropped the sentence about buttoning all of one's shirt buttons including the top most one. First of all, one should NOT button their top most button unless they are wearing a tie. Secondly, I think it is self explanatory that one should button all the rest of the buttons. Although, if any one disagrees about the self explanatory part, I have no objection to adding it back (sans the top button part).
2.) Changed the sentence that said black suits are for "evenings and formal wear". That made it sound like black suits were the traditional norm for evenings...they weren't, at least not in the way we mean suit. Dinner jackets (aka tuxedos) are typically black, but a standard black suit has never been traditional. I also replaced "formal wear" with dinner jacket, as formal wear is vague, and I honestly don't know of any formal wear outside of a tuxedo which was traditionally black.
PS Good point about changing wording to contemporary conservative from traditional PPS Yeah...thanks for correcting the double breasted suit part (I've never worn one, nor do I obviously know much about them)
[edit] Suits and the issue of men's fashion freedom
I removed this section today:
Some men have questioned why men are so often required to wear suits to dress up, while women have been able to forgo the wearing of traditional formal attire such as blouses, skirts or dresses, for more simple and practical clothes to do the same. As mentioned earlier, clothing such as sweaters or T-shirts are strictly casual wear (or "dressy casual" at most in the former's case) for men, while women are commonly seen as being fully dressy while wearing such, or not wearing skirts. there may be several reasons for this descrepancy: In the case of women being able to choose to wear pants over skirts, the desire for equality with men, driven by feminism is the most probable cause. As a result of the breaking of the standard female dress code , blouses may have lost their dominance as well. The reason for the expectations of men to wear suits (or at least a shirt and tie) is most probably the result of males not having any equivilent drive for equality.
for the following reasons:
- "some men" is a weasel term and needs to be replaced by some references to which men - the fact that I have never heard this complaint does not, of course, mean it does not exists, so a citation to the article in the New York Times which defines it will do nicely.
- the terms "dressy casual" and "fully dressy" are somewhat odd; business casual and business dress or formal dress are probably the correct terms in context, but I don't really understand the argument well enough form the context of the paragraph to know whether it is only in the business context that this alleged problem exists
- the idea that men suffer any form of overt discrimination over dress codes seems to me to be highly ocntentious. Women suffer far more form this, having to tread a delicate line between being castigated for being frumpy and being villified as tarty. Skirt above the knee? below the knee? mid-calf? Neckline?
- the opposite case to that put in this paragraph could also be made: the suit is a marvellous fashion device, never out of place. Suit with tie: adequately formal. Too formal? Remove the jacket. Still too formal? Take the tie off. Still too formal? Roll the shirt sleeves up. There is almost no business context, and few social contexts, in which the wearing of a suit constitutes a faux pas.
If we are goign to cover this, we need to do it in a much more thorough manner - but actually I think it is already well covered at dress code. Just my $0.02
[edit] Handkercheifs have never been good form in Britain???
"Handkerchiefs and pocket squares/silks in the upper welt (chest) pocket are not especially common in today's conservative dress, and have never been 'good form' in Britain..."
Can someone please elaborate on why this is the case? I'd agree that handkerchiefs are not used the vast majority of the time, especially in business due to their non-conservative look. That said, handkerchiefs can be folded conservatively or flamboyantly.
However they are used very extensively at Mayfair's gentlemen's clubs, formal events (i.e. black tie) and formal parties. To make a statement that they "have never been 'good form' in Britain" is quite frankly, ludicrous.
--IamNear 13:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Broadly correct. Certainly they have been acceptable for the past fifty years. I seem to remember from Wodehouse that conservative dressers might still have disapproved back in the twenties and thirties, though.
That said, I believe it is still improper to wear a hankerchief that does not match the tie.--Evil Capitalist 16:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Link to tailor
At the base of the article there is a link to a custom tailor.
Is this appropriate?
They may be a good tailor, but there are at least 1000s of good tailors the world over, why does this one warrant mention in an encyclopedia article on suits?
On second thought, I'm not sure this article's discussion page gets much traffic, so I'm taking it out for now, but here's the link if people think it should be replaced:
[edit] American bias?
While not an expert on this subject, I get the feeling that the history section of this article gives a somewhat americanocentric view of the development of the lounge suit. Perhaps it is just because of my country of origin, but surely such an account is not complete without reference to the Duke of Windsor and so on. Could someone with more knowledge than myself perhaps do the honours?--Evil Capitalist 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Seperate Article For Men and Women's Suits
The rules for men's and women's suits are very different and make use of different fabrics, color, texture, pattern, ad constructions. Rather than general article on suits why not a Men's suits and a women's suits article? Absent comments to the contrary I'll implement this in a few days.
- just use separate sections. the material still fits on the page. it may be hard to disambiguate incoming links if they refer to "suits" to include both.--Jiang 06:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Agreed
Hey, etiquette article starter here again - Totally agreed, seperate articles make great sense to me as well.
[edit] Cleanup
Removed some of the superfulous talk regarding suit (while retaining the question). Wikipedia is not meant to function as a blog. 68.203.127.188 14:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)Mr. Burns August 10, 2006
[edit] Modern suit created in Britain as adaption of frock coat for horseriding.
I once read somewhere that the modern suit evolved in Britain as the old fashioned court dress was shortened to allow for horseriding, probably hunting. Thats why suits (apart from double breasted) have one or two vents at the back, to allow the legs to spread over the horse. And not an American invention, as it currently says in the article.
[edit] optical illusion on TV
Does anyone know the name of the optical illusion that happens with certain patterned suits or shirts on TV. It looks like there are curved lines of darker patterning that shift along the patterned surface as it moves. It sometimes also creates colour where there isn't any ie. a black and white houndstooth suit might seem to have a hint of rainbow where these bands appear. I'm sorry I can't describe this phenomenon better. I know it has a name though. Mike.lifeguard 05:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- That's a moiré pattern caused by the intersection of the plaid fabric and the red, green, and blue color grids on the video camera.
It's not an optical illusion; it's really there in the signal. - PKM 17:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Belts with suits
Suits made by English tailors do not have belt loops but have side fasteners and braces (suspenders) buttons. Suits bought off the peg at high street stores do have belt loops. A gentleman would never wear a belt with a suit. However, I am not sure that this (unlike most issues in the UK) is so much to do with class as with growing informality. In the days when all working men owned a "Sunday Best" suit, it would have held up by braces. I have amended the accessory section to convey this without starting a class war. Is this only a UK phenomenon or is wearing a belt with a suit considered vulgar behaviour elsewhere? Terwilliger 21:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
