Talk:Suikoden II

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[edit] Update Discussion

Okay, I'm planning on overhauling this page. I feel this would be preferable to merging it with the article for Suikoden, as discussed below. There doesn't appear to be much discussion on this game at the moment, but I'm going to outline my plan here first in case anyone has it on their watchlists. Please feel free to comment on or critique my design.

  • This page is completely devoid of a proper introduction, which I will write based on a few key characteristics. First, the popularity of this game firmly established Suikoden as a series that Konami felt they should pursue, as the first game was eclipsed by the unprecedented success of Final Fantasy VII. It is also a cult classic that had a small production run which causes it to continue to fetch high prices to this day. This game also contributed greatly to the development of the Suikoden following by spurring discussion of the True Runes and also put Harmonia on the map, which is arguably the political and cultural hegemon of the Suikoden world, or at least the northern continent. It also fleshed out the game world some more with discussion of the Grasslands, the primary setting for its sequel, Suikoden III.
  • The Gameplay discussion is probably the strongest part of the existing article, though it needs some cleanup and a little development. It can be clarified, since it assumes somewhat that the reader understands some Suikoden conventions. I will move some portions to other sections, as well.
  • The Plot section includes character discussion, which may end up being a can of worms here since we're dealing with 108 characters plus NPCs. I believe that we can divide the character and plot sections, so I will do that. I'm on the fence about merging, because if someone ever puts together a good, categorical Suikoden series page, it's going to be a headache to get consistency across the board. Some characters are present in multiple games, some are merely referenced in other games, and so forth. This is beyond the scope of my revision, so what I intend to do is discuss the primary characters in the game and leave merging up for debate.
  • The "Detailed Plot Synopsis" is very long for a synopsis. I think that this can be trimmed somewhat and revised to better show the primary plot points and themes of the game. I've seen both detailed and brief plot synopses on Wikipedia, so I would greatly encourage feedback from the community on this.
  • The Rarity discussion is important and will be kept, but revised. Some of the information is outdated.

Some miscellaneous items as well:

  • There is no discussion on the game's music, which enjoyed some popularity in the video game music community.
  • Virtually no discussion of the game's development and sales success. This game was a turning point for the series in this regard.
  • No discussion of critical response to the game. The game is somewhat old, so a wide variety of reviews will be difficult to obtain, but this is very doable.
  • As mentioned before, a section on the True Runes present in the game will probably be helpful, as well.

I am also considering the legacy of this game as one of the last created in the class of two-dimensional, sprite-based games on home video game console units. However, this may be more appropriate in another article. Please provide feedback so that we can have a well-rounded in the article in the end. Also, please keep in mind that I anticipate this being a first step in an extended revision process, and we don't have to knock it all out in one shot. ~ Seitori 11:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Discussion

Sorry if this is bad, it's my first submission that isn't a simple edit. Feel free to correct any information, or delete anything unnecessary, or replace it with an article that is all totally rad and whatnot. Specifically, the direction of Jowston in relation to Toran may be off, and I didn't make any mention of it being the Scarlet Moon Empire(didn't want to deal with brackets, which I saw as the only viable option to put it in with the setup I have), or the last paragraph, which may not be worthy of mentioning. Or the thing about vastly improved graphics, the 'vast' probably falls under opinion. So, again, sorry for incorrect or bad information, but this game certainly deserves to have an article, and I can't be bothered to do research or be a good writer, or anything like that... --Frosteey 00:30, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

I vote yes on merging this article with the original Suikoden. It doesn't seem broad enough to stand on its own. --WillDarlock 20:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would disagree, honestly. While this isn't the longest or most detailed articles Wikipedia has, it's fairly substantial, and I'm personally of the opinion that there's no reason to merge articles on two distinct games into one unless it's not possible to wring more than a stub out of one of them, which is clearly not the case here. – Seancdaug 20:15, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Disagree. After the pending revision, this article should be sufficient to stand on its own. Furthermore, there are individual pages for other games in the series already. ~ Seitori 11:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I added s'more stuff and fixed up some of the info as well as re-arranged it. I've also especially fixed the extremely confusing 'massive battle' section that had names of characters which would confuse non-players. Hopefully it is a little more comprehensible now. This is an article primarily for inquiring minds on the game so it should give a good overview first, followed by spoilers. I've yet to fix up the story section because it's pretty long and I'm not sure where to begin and how much to include yet. --Dinkybarrel

[edit] Merge

I'll have to agree with the merge. Or maybe create a List of Suikoden characters. --Zeno McDohl 00:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

There are currently very roughly 1000 characters in the Suikoden universe and that amount will only grow. Atleast half of those have well developed histories and profiles and those are being expanded all the time. If all Suikoden characters were to merge into a single document I'd predict that page would exceed the equivalent of 150 A4 pages full of information within a year, thus making it a most cumbersome page both to load up and read. There is quite simply just too damned much info about the Suikoden universe to just limit it to one page. Sure, Anita's page might be small at the moment but that will surely grow. Hopefully our Suikoden guru Blue Moon or similar pseudo-authoriry will start looking this way in due time and then "issues" like Anita's page will be solved. I've also noticed that merging pages together lowers the updating rate of the subject and makes it, if not harder, then atleast more annoying to navigate. All in all I can't find a single reason why merging would make anything better, which ultimately is the only thing the matters.(Djungelurban 01:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC))
See Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). Non-notable minor characters should be in a "List of characters" as I proposed. --Zeno McDohl 01:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Zeno McDohl, the list is a good idea: Move all the minor characters in one list and keep seperate articles on the main characters. If you want eleborate info on all characters in the game you should start your own wiki or start a wikibook on the subject. -- Koffieyahoo

I realise I'm late but since nothing has been done yet, let me put my two cents: I disagree. Character lists are all good for a reasonable amount of minor characters with bare tidbits of information. Suikoden has about five hundred with the stars alone, many of which have enough data to cover one screen each when kept to the most relevant details. Rina and Tessai's pages are horribly incomplete, Anita and Nina are both missing info as well. Just check out the notability in fiction list and you'll see an example of a minor character with enough information to warrant an article of his own.

Just for the record, most Suikoden character articles here are either awfully incomplete, awfully written, or ridden with fan speculation. If you want to decide which ones deserve their own articles, wait until they are completed (Something I may or may not finish doing). Ephyon 15:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that a reasonable course of action would be to create an article for the characters with just a few lines about them. Characters that have enough background and info to have their own article will have internal links in the said general characters page. I'd be happy to help with it if anyone else thinks it's a good idea. Crazyspoonkiller 05:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I didn't see the 108 SoD link at the bottom of the page. Crazyspoonkiller 01:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

  • For the record if there's going to be a character section to this article it would be simplistic if only the major protagonists and antagonists were included (i.e. Riou, Jowy, Nanami, Luca Blight) as opposed to every single one who had some part to play or the list would get well out of hand. This stands for my point to disagree to merge the articles. RBlowes 10:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Neutral. See my discussion of characters in the update section above. ~ Seitori 11:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I have to ask this of everyone familiar with this work. What does it mean that there are "five hundred with the stars alone", are there really that many main characters in the game or series? Most television shows that run 100 episodes have barely 1000 named people, 965 of which don't even deserve mention on this encylopedia. I think it would be perferable for the notable people (not people mentioned in passing, or people who have little to nothing to do with the plot or backstory of the tale) to be placed directly into one list article that covers either each individual game or the entire series. 3 line articles with crufty "stats" sections don't really cut it (actual main characters should have their own articles if there is enough information to warrant a page). With that said, I say merge. Radagast83 08:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
    • What was ment by that is in each of the main Suikoden games there are technicly 108 "main" protagonists with a few more "main" then others: 108x5 = 540. But this number needs to be adjusted for those characters that make repeat appearances, stars that can have more then one person on them, or unique circumstances. And this does not count the antagonists that do not join; characters that join, but do not have stars; characters from Suikoden Tactics; or "minor" characters that play large roles. And most, if not all of the Stars are notible enough and have enough information on them to warrant their own pages. (Justyn 04:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC))
      • I suppose it all depends on what one person considers notable and what another doesn't. While it does appear that there are that many characters that can be playable, I've seen many of the articles dealing with each character. Many (and most) appear to be little more than one sentence summaries and very suspect (and unsourced) "stats" sections, in some cases it appears that the bulk of the articles are made up of the image. Having hundereds of stubs isn't helpful for anyone. I go back to my earlier comment about TV shows. There are many many TV shows (I'll hazard to guess every single one ever made) which one could make a case that every single person should appear in their own article. Most TV shows don't have more than a half dozen to a dozen articles for its characters, and many more have omnibus articles covering anything from main to minor characters (without individual articles). At the very least there should be, if there isn't already, a list of characters from each game, and at such time as there is enough information for a particluar person (outside the one or two line stub), they should be spun off to their own article. Radagast83 06:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
        • The big reason that many of the articles are so short is because there are so many. Several hundred articles are hard to write, quantity over quality looks to be what was done here. In fact, several characters that play pretty big roles, and should have five good sized paragraphs on them 'have nothing written about them, take Tai Ho for example, he plays semi-major roles in Suikoden I & Suikoden II; but what is written about him?

"Tai Ho is a character in Konami's role playing game Genso Suikoden and Suikoden II. He is a fisherman along with his oath brother, Yam Koo. Tai Ho uses a spear as his weapon."

He has this little, dispite the fact that his article would be as long as Yam Koo's. And Humphrey Mintz would have an article that would probably be longer, yet he has about what Tai Ho has: basicly nothing.

And I myself don't count the "stats" and pictures when looking at the content a page has. Barbarossa Rugner is around what I would consider to be a good rough minimum. Because save a few, most characters in the series have this amount of information, or more. Putting hundreds of characters that each have a large chunk of information on them into lists, with the stats, pictures, and templates would look something like this:

List of Suikoden major characters - A
List of Suikoden major characters - B
List of Suikoden major characters - C
List of Suikoden major characters - D
List of Suikoden major characters - E
And et cetera.

But, I think that improving pages like this should be a higher concern then making more pages of that "quality". (Justyn 10:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC))

(I would have sworn that that page was FAR larger. (Justyn 12:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)))

Maybe we could merge the short articles (such as Hilda) to the Minor Characters page. Crazyspoonkiller 23:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And then the page would have hundreds of entries. And most of the character pages are short because they are only a picture, some stats, and a header. Currently, most of them are just like that because noone has added all, or most of the information on the character. (Justyn 04:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Plot

I'm basically going to finish it off tonight, when I get home. Trying to continue in the same fashion: if anyone wants to help, I left the chain of events, so ya can stay on track.) 74.12.12.15 18:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron

[edit] Name and edits

Couple of things to note, there doesn't seem to be many references here also it may be worth noting that Riou isn't the canonical name of the protagonist at least I don't believe Konami have actually confirmed this as of so far. I'll check in to editing this later on. RBlowes 10:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't confirmed, but since it is the name that they used in the novel the fandom seems to use it at will. It is easily the most accepted variant beyond Hero II.

I think the use of Riou is fine as long as the article maintains the Riou link and mentions why it is used. I intend to continue its use in my overall revision. ~ Seitori 11:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] First Section

Wouldn't it be reasonable to mention Riou's sister, Nanami, in the first section? I guess that part could use a rewrite. Lejman 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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