Talk:Submarine sandwich

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Is the Dagwood really a submarine sandwich? The kind Dagwood is known for in Blondie are not submarine sandwiches. --Furrykef 13:09, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A Dagwood is not a submarine sandwich by any stretch of the imagination. Sub sandwiches are long, while Dagwood sandwiches are tall. -Branddobbe 09:38, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

I agree, and removed Dagwood from the list. Dagwood sandwich was also a redirect here, and I changed it to go to sandwich instead. I also removed Cuban sandwich, which doesn't much resemble a submarine. -- Coneslayer 2005 June 30 19:01 (UTC)

[edit] Regional names

I think this is too specific of a subway-naming incident! You can't just go naming sandwiches from your town deli and get away with it on the wiki!

• Cosmo - Williamsport, PA a cosmo is a toasted sub.

This category is Regional Names! Williamsport is the major city in the north central region of Pennsylvania. Toasted subs in this region of PA are known as "Cosmos." That is why I added cosmo to the list of regional names. Dincher 22:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Dincher - Cosmo Eater

I live in NJ and I've never in my life heard someone call a sub a 'bomber' or 'zep'...whoever put this list together needs to stop looking up names from a book of slang from the 20s

Well, you could get around more or, like me, do some research. Check out the American Heritage Dictionary under submarine; it has a long Regional Note that lists various names for the sandwich: upstate NY, bomber; downstate NY, wedge; Delaware Valley & South NJ, hoagie; New England, grinder; Miami, Cuban sandwich; Maine, Italian sandwich; New Orleans, poor boy. Submarine, sub, and hero are "widespread, not assignable to any particular region." The definition for zep says "Chiefly New Jersey."--BillFlis 19:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I found the above in my old (1994) AHD on CD-ROM, but here's a more recent version online [1] and on the zep [2]. If you did find any of these terms in a book of slang from the '20s, that would be very interesting as historical background; a citation would be appreciated! And if you yourself happen to be a World's Foremost Authority on All Things New Jersical, it would help if you sign your messages with your real name, so we would, like, know.--BillFlis 21:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I grew up in NJ and have only heard "sub" and "hoagie." Seems like folks north of the Mercer/Monmouth division prefer sub while folks south of there prefer hoagie. Sometimes "grinder" comes out, but it categorically refers to baked hoagies. I have never heard "zep" used. Ever. I would definitely question any source claiming that "zep" is commonly used anywhere in NJ.

The reason I focus on "zep" is because a "zep" is a very specific sandwich native to Norristown PA that always comes on a round roll (unless requested otherwise) with cooked salami, provolone, tomato, onion, oil and spices. The roll usually comes from the Conshohocken Italian Bakery. I was not that suprised to see zep mentioned in conjuntion with sumbarine sandwiches (local legend claims that the zep was intended to be a less expensive alternative to the hoagie), but I was quite surprised to see it listed as NJ slang.

Personally, I think the zep is unique enough that I would love to make a separate article for it, but thus far I haven't been able to find much reference material. Jzerocsk 21:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

This ref [3] says "These names are not distributed in a pattern similar to that of other regional words because their use depends on the business and marketing enterprise of the people who create the sandwiches and sell them." In other words, any sandwich shopowner can call his sandwich anything he wants, so it's kind of hopeless to go by personal experience. Guy moves from Philly to Hong Kong, he's still gonna sell "hoagies."--BillFlis 15:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That being the case...shouldn't someone somewhere actually be calling it a Zep? Either a transplant from NJ living somewhere else selling Zeps, or a well-known Zep shop somewhere in NJ. Googling for "Zep Shop" only really yielded references to a Zep shop in Phoenixville, PA. They are Norristown transplants selling the Norristown Zep, though. Googling for "Italian Zep" which ought to ferret out some sandwich shop that calls their hoagie a Zep only seems to conclusively point to Yale and MIT and a later reference to another sandwich shop in Phoenixville that is selling Norristown Zeps. I tried to guess where in NJ someone might call a hoagie a zep and the only logical answer that comes to mind is Lakehurst/Manchester, but I can't find any references. I've tried a variety of different searches, but I just cannot find anyone anywhere that admits to it.

I think at this point it's tough to make a conclusive case. Nonetheless, it's just weird that it seems like a lot of resources agree that somewhere people are calling their subs Zeps, yet it seems hard to find anyone that actually does. I'm starting to wonder if it's either no longer used or was once listed erroneously and now other sources are simply repeating the already incorrect information. Jzerocsk 18:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard them called zeps in northern N.J. and eastern PA but more as a throw-away slang term in reference to fried dough with powdered sugar, most often served at church bazaars and religious festivals as a dessert. I would attribute the probable etymology to a shortened version of German zeppelin (like the blimp) or Italian zeppole/zeppoli (a well-known food treat) based on those significant immigrant populations of the areas cited.Rpallotta

Can you point to any source where we can actually see an example of someone calling their hoagie a "zep?" I suspect anyone you heard in Eastern PA using the term is talking about the "other" sandwich from Norristown (see above). I still have not seen any examples of a Jerseyan using the word.

Regarding the etymology, there is so little similarity between fried dough balls (zeppolli) and hoagies, that I can't imagine the two are related at all. Being short for zeppelin is a little more believable since a hoagie is roughly shaped like a zeppelin. However without a source, it's still just original research and should be removed from the article. To be honest, until we can actually find someone who calls them zeps, we'll probably never be able to truly know the origin. --Jzerocsk 22:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good points and I agree though similar, zeppoli is probably not the etymology. But I'm reluctant to delete the zeps or zeppelin reference since I didn't place the entry. Being new to this I'm unsure of the Wikipedia protocols in such cases... Rpallotta

[edit] MERGE

Should information from Hero sandwich and Hoagie be merged with this article? --Blue387 07:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The hoagie article is now pretty long, and has lots of info particular to the Philadelphia sandwich. I'd leave that where it is.--BillFlis 19:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] origin

Should say something about the origin of the term.

The story about submarine workers inventing the term sounds suspiciously like folk etymology. A citation might make me believe it, but it would have to be pretty authoritative. The sandwich looks enough like a submarine for anyone to make the association, without any special expertise in undersea warfare. Did zeppelin workers come up with "zep"? Did the submarine workers in the torpedo room come up with "torpedo"? Was the whole thing inspired by a test cruise to the Sandwich Islands? I think not! In fact, I clearly remember Mom feeding me one of these in my highchair when I was about one and a half years old, saying, "Here's comes the zeppelin, open the hangar!"--BillFlis 19:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and removed the following, which I could verify nowhere, and which I strongly suspect is a hoax. On the contrary, the numerous references I did find (see any dictionary, for example) indicate that the sandwich simply takes its name from its shape.--BillFlis 12:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

 The 'submarine' moniker originated in Groton, Connecticut among employees of the Electric Boat Corporation, a manufacturer of actual submarines, on the basis of the sandwich's shape, which is similar to that of one of the submersible boats and gained broader usage through the Subway sandwich chain based in nearby Milford, Connecticut.

Now this I like: "In 1898 the first submarine sandwich was introduced, but the company went under." [4]--BillFlis 12:28, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

  The Electric Boat Company in CT was, indeed, started in 1898. 65.1.21.217 10:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

dictionary.reference.com[5] believe that etymology.

But that page is written so poorly, with such bad grammar and style, it makes me really doubt it!--BillFlis 14:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a version of the Groton legend. We probably won't ever know the true etymology but there are certainly legends which are sufficiently notable to report on. –Shoaler (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The Electric Boat article says the co. started in 1899. Are you saying that needs fixing? Also, I think you need a citation to include the legend; otherwise, I won't believe that it's really a legend but just something that somebody made up but you happen to believe. One person's belief in something does not make it a legend; many people have to believe it. Also, how can you be sure that it's not true? If it's true, it's wrong to call it a legend.--BillFlis 11:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)