Talk:Subhash Chandra Bose/archive2

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Jai Hind

It should be mentioned that Subhash coined the term "Jai Hind", the ubiqutous patriotic chant in India. Wonder what collaborator theorist think abt THAT. --ppm 19:00, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

categorization

User:Alren, would you please explain the cryptic comment "Already in sub-sub-sub cat."? What is wrong with this marked as Category:Indian History? Thanks --Ragib 29 June 2005 20:23 (UTC)

Ragib, I'm glad U asked. First of all there's nothing cryptic about it. Netaji is already in the sub cat Category:Indian freedom fighters, of sub cat Category:British rule in India of sub cat Category:European Rule in India of Category:Indian history. We cannot possibly list all the freedom fighters under main category. That's the main reason for Wikipedia having categories. I saw that somebody had commented "Alren, SC.Bose and the I.N.A. were the reason why India became independent. If you have difficulty in accepting this fact, why not consult the reading list. Ciao". As much as I respect and admire Netaji, I don't think that him, INA, Rash Behari Bose, Chitranjan Das were not the only reason of India's freedom. There should not be any regional bias . Me being from Gujarat, I can think Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel was the main reason for India's freedom or whatever, does not mean I should go ahead and put SVP at the root category. There a lot's of reasons for India's freedom from 1857 mutiny to Bhagat Singh to the Salt Satygraha to all the unknown martyrs of India's struggle for independnce. I have not touched Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru with this aspect. Gandhiji is more of a face of India. Nehru whether one likes it or not (myself included) was first prime minister and was another significant figure in India's history. That's why in my constant attempt to catagorize and re-catogrize articles so that the categories do not become overwhelming I constantly revert back SCB, INA, RB out if Category:Indian history. Thanks, Alren 29 June 2005 20:42 (UTC)
ok, now it makes sense to me. Its difficult to go thru all levels of category tree to find out the root category .... --Ragib 29 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
Hmm, this is getting ridiculous, will Alren (talk • contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk • contribs) settle the matter here in the talk page than going on edit/revert/categorization war on the main page? Why don't both of you talk and settle the issue .. I find 8 reverts of the category in the last 15 days. --Ragib 18:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok, in the last month or so, Alren (talk • contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk • contribs) have participated in repeated revert wars on the silly matter of categorization. I found 8 x 2 = 16 reverts between them. Would you *please* discuss the matter in the talk page and settle on something rather than reverting the article every few days? This is becoming a farce. Thanks. --Ragib 16:09, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Dear Alren (talk • contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk • contribs), you have NOT at all bothered to discuss it here, but continuously revert the categories, the most recent being today. Would you please go to arbitration over your disputes and leave this page in peace? Why is it so difficult for you two to discuss the matter here and fix your disagreement over categorization? Please follow wikipedia's policies rather than being so stubborn. Thanks. --Ragib 03:48, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Dear Ragib (talk • contribs). Where have you not see me discuss anything? In general whatever edits I have made in Wikipedia, have appropriate reasoning mentioned behind that, including this categorization issue of Subhash Chandra Bose, Indian National Army, Rash Behari Bose, Chittaranjan Das. If an issue was raised, (as you saw earlier) I'm willing to discuss. Unlike "Alren, SC.Bose and the I.N.A. were the reason why India became independent. If you have difficulty in accepting this fact, why not consult the reading list. Ciao", I've mentioned my reasoning behind the "revert wars" few paragraphs above. So kindly don't keep on pointing to me for not discussing. Alren 14:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I get your point, and you are right in making the categorization correct. I only wanted to stop the recent category-reverts between you and LordGulliverofGalben. I am not questioning your edits (which in my opinion are amply justified), my only concern was that this category issue kept recurring again and again in this page. Now that the category is cleared, we can ask LordGulliver to stop or be reported for vandalism. Thanks. --Ragib 14:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Alren is right. The is no need for the article to come under the main History of India category. I have posted a message on Gulliver's page. User:Nichalp/sg 09:25, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
LordGulliverofGalben replies:
Thank you all for your messages. I consider it to be a matter of ignorance of one's national history that this topic should be raised in the first place. I am not writing this from any regional bias and any charges pertaining to that may be safely ignored. As Shyam Benegal's film expostulates, Subhash Bose and the INA are confined to the dustbin of history and are sadly destined to be forgotten. Yet during the pre-Independent era Gandhi, Nehru and Bose were the three pillars of the Indian freedom movement(if we leave out Jinnah). Jinnah preferred to deal with Nehru rather than Bose, as the latter would never have allowed Partition. Gandhi referred to Bose as his son and it is perhaps this historic conflict between them in 1939 that paved the way for the armed insurrection later. Alren and Nichalp, do you really believe in the officially widespread version of history that India won freedom due to the Quit India Movement of 1942, which ensured that most of the Congress leaders would be incarcerated and humbled. Much as I respect Sardar Patel (as perhaps the lone pragmatist in a coterie of yes-saying Congress leaders), Maulana Azad (for being the lone dissenting Muslim Congress leader), and Nehru -- it is their post-Independence achievements and not that of the Colonial era -- that I admire and respect. On the contrary, the revolt of the Royal Indian Navy in 1946, gave a strong signal to the British that their tool for dominion and conquest, the British Indian army and its sepoys could not be kept at arms length from political happenings for long. 'Better leave India before they start killing us' was how the British reacted in panic. For more, read Nirad C. Chaudhuri's Continent of Circe. The British respected Gandhi, did business with Nehru, but utterly hated Bose. The reason is obvious.
The reason for putting Bose in the History section is that much of what he said and did (like National Planning, Hindi as national language, and putting national needs above sectarian ones)form the basis of the principles of a sovereign, secular, democratic India, a vision more plausible in imagination than in reality, as the Gujarat riots in 2002 illustrated.
Indians are content to learn their history from Westerners who are always predisposed to cultivate and project a very negative image. Contrarily, they (Indians) perhaps learn more of American of British history courtesy the History Channel. Alren and Nichalp, why don't you check with some Sulekha.com articles if you are really interested in knowing something on India? It is perhaps the lack of historical awareness , a sense of historical continuity that prevents India from being a developed nation, like Japan, Turkey or even South Korea.
 :LordGulliverofGalben: I have not stated any theories on India's history. History, unlike for example Geography is largely subjective. It is impossible to point out the exact cause in India's independence. While you may claim that NSCB is the main celebrant of India's independance, someone else might refute that. If you feel that he deserves more attention, by all means improve this article with other editors and get it up to Featured Status. Do the same for the INA. You've been here for almost a year, and I consider it a little rude of you to assume, and bluntly state that we are selling out India's history as the topic is on the category, NOT the role of SCB. You claim that Bose was the main reason for India's independance is highly biased, and certainally your personal viewpoint. He may be a major factor in the country's independence, I don't deny that, but there's no reason why he should be categorised under the main category:History of India, the crux of the issue here. That category, I firmly reiterate is for different periods of India's history, NOT for individuals. The individual category is sufficient. I agree that there were some individuals, but I'll see to them that they are removed. Let's have a vote on this shall we? User:Nichalp/sg 08:00, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
LordGulliverofGalben (talk • contribs), I am not even going to discuss non-issues you brought up, viz. Turkey, South Korea being developed and India isn't or Gujarat riots. I do not want to sidetrack the issue here.
P.S. - I strongly echo Nichalp (talk • contribs) " ..I consider it a little rude of you to assume, and bluntly state that we are selling out India's history as the topic is on the category.."" Alren (talk • contribs) 16:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


LordGulliverofGalben replies:
Alren and Nichalp, thank you for your responses. You have made several charges. Let me have a chance to answer them: First, you bring out the charge of regionalism against me. Some of the articles which I have contributed include: Anita Desai, Punjab University, Chandigarh, Bharatiya Jana Sangh, List of Indian playback singers, Kanupriya Agarwal, List of Heads of State who were later imprisoned, William Carey, Vilayat Khan, B. R. Ambedkar, Jawaharlal Nehru, List of Indian movie actors,Anglo-Indian, XLRI Jamshedpur, XIMB, List of TIME Magazine's 100 most influential people of 2004, Waldemar Haffkine, List of oldest universities in continuous operation, List of people who were cremated, Dharmic, Dharmic religion, Sociology, Hindustan Ambassador, Chyawanprash, School and university in literature, Contributions to liberal theory, University of Delhi, Language Movement Day, Church of North India, Albion Woodbury Small, Asterix and the Magic Carpet, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Jawaharlal Nehru University, The Doon School, ISC, The Times of India, Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan among others.
Does this reflect a regionalist bias or a bias towards enrichment and understanding of human (not merely Indian) experience? For your information I had included Jawaharlal Nehru and B.R.Ambedkar in the previous Indian history section and I have no problems if Bhagat Singh, Sardar Patel etc. are included in the same. So before making a charge , please check it thoroughly.
But please make a uniform rule: either include all historical figures or include none.
Secondly, it would be a great idea to include other categories like Category:Pre-Independence battles in India, Category:Cities of Ancient India, Category:Historical Indian empires, Category:European Rule in India, Category:British rule in India, Category:Colonial Indian companies, Category:Historical Indian regions, Category:Indian monarchs, Category:Ruling clans of India, Category:Mughal empire---- as you(Alren) have suggested.
Last but not the least, I have taken the liberty of removing all other personalities from that list --- to conform to a same standard of having no personalities on that list. Surely Shabeg Singh doesn't deserve to be on the same list as Jawaharlal Nehru. And Alren, you had mentioned that you identified Mahatma Gandhi as the face of India. Sorry, with all respect to Gandhiji, I do not share or accept that view. Living in the West I assure you that it conveys a very negative image of an emaciated underfed India, constantly at odds with modernism. Here the image of India is that of a rising youthful one, able to successfully challenge the best in the world.
9:46 EST, July 19, 2005.LordGulliverofGalben


-To LordGulliver-:
It would have certainly helped if you had raised queries on the appropriateness of the category. I'd asked you not to add the category to the page and I had clearly explained the rationale behind it. Instead you rant about Subash Chandra Bose and his importance and accuse us of ignorance. We did not for once dispute or glorify his status; all we wanted was the appropriate category on his page. If you had instead cited your reasons for the inclusion of the category, things might have been sorted out in a more civil matter.
Categories, unlike pages cannot be added to a user's watchlist. It is impossible to ascertain when a new page is added to a category unless you check the page day in and day out. Some editors blindly put the category India or History of India to an article knowing fully well that someone will find a more appropriate category. I'm glad you have realised your mistake and hopefully this issue is now settled. User:Nichalp/sg 09:32, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
-To LordGulliver-: (from Alren (talk • contribs) )
Firstly there's a difference between contributing to items of varied area of interest and consistently bring topics related to Kolkota and West Bengal under the main categories. That's what I call regionalism. It can be clearly seen from the examples I brought up and the other items to by you (which you list above).
The rules are uniform, but there are always exceptions. There's a difference between historical figures of India and Mahatma Gandhi as there's a difference between historical figures of South Africa/Nelson Mandela or h.f. of turkey/Kamal Attaturk, etc. (even though both of these examples are not included in the history of their resp. countries). As some other contributor aptly put in " ..if any person deserves to be in History of India, it's Gandhi..".
The categories I mentioned are (which U say should be included) were always created as sub (or deeper) categories of Category:History of India.
I agree that Shabeg Singh does not equate with Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi but the fact that it was under the category in question does imply it also. It might have been under this cat., for the sole reason, that there are no other appropriate sub-cats under History of India. So instead taking "the liberty of removing all other personalities from that list"" , it should have behooved you to either put then in appropriate sub-cat or create one or just leave it there, lest articles like Ajatashatru and Aspavarman are forever disconnected from India or it's history in this humongous encyclopedia.
"Sorry, with all respect to Gandhiji, I do not share or accept that view." - Ah! So the billion minus 1 people of India should change it and confirm to yours! Just because you do not like Gandhiji does not change the fact that History of recent India was charted through him. If you do not like Gandhi, that's fine, many people would not agree with some of the actions of Gandhiji, but accept it for a fact that he is indeed the face of India. "Living in the West I assure you that it conveys a very negative image of an emaciated underfed India, constantly at odds with modernism." Thanks for assuring me what the image of India is in the West, sure you would know better as I live in the West ( I dunno, the world or India ;-} ..). "Here the image of India is that of a rising youthful one, able to successfully challenge the best in the world." And which India do U think I came from? Just because U live in India, does not mean you have a complete understanding of India or it's history. I don't know about U, but I bet U that User:Tom Radulovich does have a much better knowledge of the history of India then me .
Whether U like it or not I will shortly bring back Gandhi in the category in question (if you want a vote for the one, I can start one). Also the pages which were blindly de-cat might meet the same fate.
Thanks Alren (talk • contribs) 14:27, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Voting

LordGulliver wishes to have the category: category:History of India added to SCB. There is a sub category category: Indian freedom fighters under the History of India cat. meant for this. The HoI category is meant for time periods and individual locales' histories. User:Nichalp/sg 08:06, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

In favour of the above


Not in favour
  • User:Nichalp/sg 08:14, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Sundar \talk \contribs 08:33, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Alren (talk • contribs) 14:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • --Ragib 19:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • pamri 10:45, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Prevent a new edit war

Hi, this is with reference to my rv of multiple edits by Nirav.Maurya & 129.237.189.68 to that of 134.130.240.109. I have specified the reasons below.

It is an undeniable fact that Mahatma Gandhi supported Pattabhi and viewed his defeat as defeat of Gandhi's principles. Nirav's deletion of these phrases is unwarranted. At the same time, it is not proper to say that Gandhiji ensured Bose's resignation by bringing pressure on him. Here, Nirav's deletion may make sense; however, a better way to view it is "Bose understood that congress is not the ideal vehicle for his views, given the extent of Gandhiji's influence on the congress philosophy." Nirav's statements about Bose's sycophantic supporters do not cut much ice; It is a large body of All India Congress Committee that elected the congress president and a few sycophantic supporters either side cannot really sway the result. Also, Nirav should give some reference with respect to Vithalbhai Patel's estate happenings. 129.237.189.68 edited most of these, by simply deleting them; It doesn't solve the problem - since the article is incomplete without Bose's endeavours at the Haripura and Tripuri sessions of the Congress, which mark an important change in the path of his life. Hence, I reverted these edits to an edit before Nirav.Maurya's first edit. However, some of the points raised by Nirav, such as Bose preferring any means (violent or non-violent) as long as ends are justified, need to be incorporated in the article.

I take justifiable pride in India's freedom struggle and am a great fan of both the Mahatma and SCB (probably more in favor of the former). However, despite personal biases, our primary job on wikipedia must be to maintain a NPOV, so I've reverted the edits. Since some of Nirav's points need incorporation in the article (though probably not in the same tone and tenor), i request others to join me in editing this article further. ---Gurubrahma 07:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

About Soviet captivity conspirancy theory

One such claims that Bose actually died in Siberia, while in Soviet captivity.


i am refer at some information why support these conspirance theory,this appareing in Axis history forum "Japanese POW's in the USSR?":


Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posted: 28 Mar 2004 19:25


The Soviets attacked Manchuria and Korea after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fighting did not stop in Korea until late september 1945.

Some of those captured were reputedly nuclear scientists of Japan's project to build an atomic bomb in North Korea (F-Go Project). Others were involved with Unit 731 which pursued biological warfare methods. Me thinks the real reason why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed was to force Japan's surrender before Stalin could capture these laboratories.

Some of those captured in Manchuria may have been Indians fighting for Japan recruited by Indian nationalist Chandra s Bose. Bose was sent by Hitler on the U-180 to help with Japan's war effort against the British.


Japanese POW's in the USSR? Simon Gunson

Member

If these comment poses any sustain,acase indicate the existance of some indians was captured in Manchukuo by Soviet Forces for conduct to siberian gulags? or more specifically between these captured INA indians stayed the "Netanji" Chandra Subhas Bose?

if only one historical curiosity.

Slight Alteration

"was one of the two most prominent leaders of the Indian Independence Movement against the British Raj (the other being Gandhi)." Whatever you think of him, Nehru has to be mentioned here. I have altered this sentence accordingly. Sikandarji 17:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Spellings

Should be Subhas and not Subhash. MarcAurel 05:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

POV

The political views section seems rather POV to me. It seems devoted to taking down anti-Bose arguments rather than giving a general overview of his political views.

Opening Sentence

"was one of the two most prominent leaders of the Indian Independence Movement against the British Raj (the other most prominent leader was Mahatma Gandhi)."

This sentence is completely tendentious, and I've had occasion to alter it before. I'm sorry to see that somebody has changed it back. I appreciate that Nehru was insufficiently violent and authoritarian in his beliefs to appeal to those who tend the immortal flame of Bose's memory, but the fact is that his role in the Indian Nationalist movement was actually more important than Bose's. He can't just be written out like this. Others might wish to push the claims of Vallabhai Patel, Lokmanya Tilak and Maulana Azad as being just as important as Bose as Nationalist leaders, but that at least is a matter for debate. This sentence should be changed either to:

"was one of the three most prominent leaders of the Indian Independence Movement against the British Raj (the others being Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi)." or (perhaps better):

"was one of the most prominent leaders of the Indian Independence Movement against the British Raj" Sikandarji 10:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree with you fully, and changed it as per the second option. I too had changed the opening previously, but it seems it has been removed. --Gurubrahma 10:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has changed that sentence again. I think the page ought to be reverted.Sikandarji 22:13, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe it - someone has done it again. Clearly this one sentence means a lot to someone out there who is EXTREMELY Childish. Sign in and give your reasons if you want to make changes like this, otherwise they'll just be reverted. Sikandarji 00:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
And again - as you can see User:130.132.248.61 (anonymous: what a surprise)! has now forced this pernicious non-NPOV on the page three times. I have reverted it twice but don't wish to invoke the three-revert rule. Can somebody else do it? Sikandarji 16:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I have reverted the change. It's really bad. The anon is adamant!!--Dwaipayanc 18:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Political Views

This section is partisan and extremely poorly written. Even Bose's most ardent supporters must realise that he remains an extremely controversial figure, through his association with the Nazis and Adolf Hitler. There is no word to describe his actions during World War II other than collaboration - the facts are not in doubt. It is up to the reader to decide whether or not the ends justified the means. Personally I do not think so, nor do I think that Bose's actions brought India's Independence one day closer, though unlike some I do not intend to force this view on the reading public. A couple of passages really caught my eye: firstly, the reference to "a small minority" of Indians who fought for the British during World War II. Over four million Indians, all volunteers, fought in the Indian Army against the Axis powers during World War II, and only 85,000 joined the INA, some under duress after seeing the appalling treatment the Japanese meted out to their prisoners. Which is the minority here? The former men were fighting to prevent the invasion of their homeland and. more generally, the triumph of evil. Has anyone ever stopped to think what would have happened had the Japanese succeeded in invading India with Bose's help? You only have to look at the horrors they perpetrated in Burma, Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. It would have set the cause of Indian independence back fifty years, knocked Britain out of the War and quite possibly led to an overall Axis triumph. India would have acquired new, crueller masters, and the World been given up to the horrors of Nazism. The INA were Japanese stooges who would have been ruthlessly discarded had their masters got what they wanted. Given all this I find the cult of Bose quite incomprehensible, and the only explanation I can find for the continuing reverence in which he is held is Bengali chauvinism, well expressed by the lines below:

"He has been given belated recognition in India, and especially in West Bengal; Kolkata's civil airport and a university have been named after him. Unfortunately however, this recognition has been limited to West Bengal."

In fact I have never heard anyone refer to the airport as anything other than Dum Dum, and the University as Presidency College. However, the writer will be glad to hear that the Shiv Sena in Bombay have renamed Marine Drive "Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose Marg" (although, not surprisingly, nobody actually uses this cumbersome title). Bal Thackeray is, of course, another admirer of Hitler. Go figure...... Sikandarji 10:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

One or two factual corrections, Sikandarji ! Dum Dum airport has been christened Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose International Airport, and just like all the other such christenings, people refer most of the time in the older name! How many people do you hear to say Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus?People still call , at least, in daily usage, Victoria Terminus, VT. Or, for that matter, your own example of Marine Drive being renamed "Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose Marg". However, in official use, the new official name is used. And another point that you have pointed out wrongly is the Netaji Subhas Open University, which is NOT the Presidency College, Kolkata.The two are absolutely different entities, and both are known in their individual names.The university is known as, and people call it, Netaji Subhas Open University.
Regarding your views on the article, I shall comment soon.I have not read the article thouroughly, so I do not think I should comment now.
I agree with you that most of the Bengalees revere Subhas Bose as a great hero, and they are so blinded by their hero-worship that pointing out the faults of Subhas often enrages one or two die-hard fan of Bose.On the other hand, we have people (both in Bengal, though small in number, and other states especially Western states of India) where certain groups of people simply loath at Bose.Both of these extremes are bad.Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia, should involve comments with proper resource.This article contains a reading list, but lacks proper referencing.We should pay attention to that.Anyway, your comments border on the extreme of anti-Bose , and I think soon you shall get some resourced replies.In the process, the article itself will gain ! Thanks! Bye.--Dwaipayanc 11:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out about the airport & university (it raises the question: why bother renaming things at all)? I accept that my views on Bose are unusually negative, although I have tried to give my reasons: that is why I haven't attempted to alter the page itself. I simply think that the bald facts of his political career and beliefs should be given, rather than a lengthy litany of excuses for his activities during the War which is what this section currently consists of. The reference to "a small minority" of Indians fighting the Japanese is both misleading and somewhat insulting. Allow the reader to make up his own mind about the man. Sikandarji 12:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

As to the amount of people fighting for either side of the conflict, figure alone doesn't cover everything. The British colonial authorities had recruited Indians for decades to fight in their armed forces, and the military provided livelyhood to a vast sections of Indians. Bose's INA was set-up in the mist of open war in just a few months. Anyone attempting to organise recruitment for INA in the areas under British control would have met with immediate imprisonment. The British closed Forward Bloc offices around the country. Thus its not strange that the Indian forces fighting for the British were numerically superior to those of INA.
But if you rather ask, with whom did the Indian people sympathize with, the answer with get quite different. It is difficult to judge the exact popularity of Bose during the war, but that the Indenpendence movement as a whole (which in many ways sabotaged British war efforts) had an overwhelming popular support as opposed to those factions that maintain support for the Allied war effort (CPI, Royists) is hardly questioned today. --Soman 13:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, people overwhelmingly supported Gandhi and the Congress, led by Nehru, but it is too simplistic to say that their views chimed with Bose's. Had Linlithgow been less stupid in declaring war without consulting the Congress leadership, they would probably have agreed to support the war effort against the Axis powers, with the proviso that the British leave India as soon as it was over. Instead the Viceroy snubbed and insulted them, and they were compelled to espouse a policy of non-cooperation with the British. This is hardly the same thing as cooperating with the enemy, or assisting a foreign power to conquer India. The INA had very little impact domestically upon the Nationalist movement because few were aware of its existence, and (fortunately) its military contribution was small. The contribution of over 4 million Indian soldiers to defeating Fascism (never mind which flag they did it under) is of far greater value, and deserves more than a slighting reference to Bose being 'forced' to fight "a small section of his own countrymen who defended India with the British Army." Sikandarji 14:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In view of the last point I have changed the wording of the 'forced to fight' section. There's no way the British Indian Army can be described as a 'small section'. DJ Clayworth 20:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

"Gandhi called Bose the 'Patriot of Patriots'". It would be enlightening to have a date for this quote, anyone? DJ Clayworth 18:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Found it. 1942. DJ Clayworth 18:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a very NPOV

I think this passage is a little suspect:

"Although Bose has been branded as a fascist in some quarters, it is mostly the result of malicious propaganda. Bose had clearly expressed his belief that democracy was the best option for India. His authoritarian control of the Indian National Army was based on political pragmatism and a post-colonial recovery doctrine rather than any anti-democratic belief."

is the author protesting too much here? I have written above about how the 'Political Views' section mainly seems to be an attempt to explain away Bose's embarrassing actions during the war. His alliance with Hitler and Tojo, his posturing in uniform, his militarism, his call to violence, and his stated belief that India would require a strict authoritarian regime led by him after the war, for the process of 'national rebuilding' (how often have we heard that excuse from budding dictators)? All this means that there are at least legitimate grounds for accusing him of Fascist tendencies, and such arguments cannot simply be dismissed as 'malicious propaganda'. P.G. Wodehouse was accused of being a Fascist sympathiser simply because he made radio broadcasts from a prison camp in Germany, so it is difficult to see how one can avoid at least questioning Bose's political beliefs: his democratic credentials are hardly watertight given the unsavoury company he kept, and that ought to be made clearer. I am not an admirer of Bose as you can tell, and would not wish to push my own POV (given above) on the main page. Nevertheless I think it is very far from being neutral to say that all suggestions that Bose had Fascist sympathies are 'malicious propaganda'.Sikandarji 22:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

  • This is pretty poor as well:

"In fact, the plan to liquidate Bose has few parallels, and appears to be a last desperate measure against a man who had thrown the British Empire into complete panic."

Or it might have been because they considered him to be a traitor who was a legitimate target because he had gone over to the Axis. Bose was now an enemy combatant, and this is quite sufficient to account for an assassination attempt. This, lest we forget, was in 1941, and while some people in Britain might have been panicking about the Germans, it was before Pearl Harbour and the Fall of Singapore, and Britain's position in Asia looked relatively secure. In any case Gandhi and Nehru (and in particular the Quit India Movement) represented a far greater threat to the British Empire than Bose ever did, and they were never assassinated even when the British had complete power over them in gaol: partly because it would have provoked uncontrollable outrage in India, and partly because for all their opposition to the Raj, they were not collaborating with the enemy. Sikandarji 16:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not know why the British ordered assasination, but what I do know is there is a respectable reference for all the claims in that line and the subsequenr sentences. See this. I have shortened that paragraph, and added the reference. Thank you for pointing out. I shall wotk on this article very slowly! It's comments bordering on MPoV, if not blatantly! Bye.--Dwaipayanc 17:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't question the fact that the British ordered his assassination (and in typically bungling fashion failed to carry it out). I do question the notion that he had already thrown the British Empire into a 'panic'. This seems in the highest degree unlikely given the state of the war at the time, and the fact that Congress leaders were far more dangerous to the British inside India than out (as Bose would belatedly discover). It would be interesting to see citations showing that he 'disapproved' of Nazi racial policies (my! Hitler must have been upset!) - but in this instance I think actions speak louder than words. He helped to set up a unit of the Waffen SS (!), and only left Germany because he disapproved of Hitler's assault on the U.S.S.R., the only other country with a regime approaching Nazi Germany's in its inhumanity: even then the Nazis gave him a lift to the other side of the world so relations can't have been all that frosty. Take this and his chumminess with the Japanese (not known for their respect for democracy at the time), add onto that his statements about the need for an authoritarian socialist regime (like Comrade Stalin's perhaps)? in India after the war - and I think you'll find they will outweigh any statements made before the war expressing his disapproval of Fascism and support for democracy: after all, who's to say they weren't based on political 'pragmatism' too? Sikandarji 20:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
You say, "I do question the notion that he had already thrown the British Empire into a 'panic'. This seems in the highest degree unlikely given the state of the war at the time, and the fact that Congress leaders were far more dangerous to the British inside India than out (as Bose would belatedly discover)." The first sentence has the reference of BBC, where the historian tells exacly the same words. (the reference I added to the text)
The second question - has differing references, of course. Just yesterday I found out a reference here, where , with secondary reference, Clement Atlee is quoted to have said that the influence of Gandhi to quit India decision by the British was "m-i-n-i-m-a-l" !! This sounds quite interesting. Doesn't it? It contradicts the usual notion, as also the idea of your comment. However, some book reference is needed, as you may point out, rather than only web references. And I do not have the time to go through books now. I wish there were some learned person to help us out here!
I agree that from a neutral standing, it does not seem that Bose 'disapproved' of Nazi racial policy. Because, any pragmatic person could not really vehemently oppose the policies of his/her allies in a war! However, I do not have any reference in this regard. Again, I wish there were some learned man!! Without resolving this matters with solid reference, this article cannot go far.
Thanks and bye.--Dwaipayanc 05:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
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