Talk:Strongholds of A Song of Ice and Fire
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[edit] Strongholds of Westeros
Okay, I created the page and did the section on the North just to see how it was looking. Overall, I like the idea for the page but already I'm seeing potential problems. One is that there isn't a huge amount of information available on many of the castles. We're given clear and detailed descriptions of King's Landing, Winterfell, Sunspear, Riverrun, the Eyrie, Dragonstone, the Twins, Storm's End and so forth, but little to no info on some of the smaller castles. I can see listing lots of castles and just noting their location on the map and what house occupies them, which is okay but will probably just lead to lots of lists lying around and also the page becoming very big, very quickly. OTOH, it may be that even this bare information will be of value to people looking at the page. There's also the danger of too much crossover with existing info on the Houses, particularly the major ones, since often the history of the castle and the family occupying it are much the same.
On the other hand, there is the scope on this page for going into greater detail than is allowed elsewhere. For example, revealing the various families who have occupied Harrenhal over its existence and so forth. So I am up for revamping the page somewhat (removing some of the less-important locations) and carrying on with it as time allows.--Werthead 16:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm going to start filling in some of the more more minor holdings. I think this page will turn into a "who/what/where the hell is that?" reference page. With the "notables" subsections this could solve some of the terrible usability problems with the main list of characters. Like you said I see alot of potential problems but let's get to fleshing this article out and then see where it takes us. NeoFreak 17:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I for one am not too sure about this page. First, it is almost always a bad idea to provide structure before content in wiki-projects. Instead (like GRRM would say), wikis use a gardening approach where pages are refactored after they evolve into something. Currently, this page does not really know if it wants to be a List of strongholds in Westeros (which would treat Karhold and Harrenhal with the same level of attention), or if it wants to include notable stuff about certain castles. Much of what might go here might better be at the individual house pages. For example, Dragonstone forms a good subsection on House Targaryen, where it sits naturally and organically and can interact with the rest of the information. In short: I am not sure we need this page and would prefer to improve the (many, crappy) House XYZ pages by including strongholdy information. For example, House Stark would benefit from a really good Winterfell section. Arbor 19:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Arbor. I think titles of the Random Thing in/of A Song of Ice and Fire variety should be avoided if at all possible. Brendan Moody 19:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't on board with the idea either but Werthead seems to think he can make it work and I don't mind putting some effort into it to see where it takes us. I still think we don't have enough for a "stronghold" page but I think alot of what's going into this could be broken off and linked from Westeros Regions sections as a Main Article. Also this format allows us to get a definitive and very encyclopedic roll call and fact roster of all the nobility and more more characters in the series in a way that helps explain their geopolitical positions within Westeros. NeoFreak 20:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Arbor. I think titles of the Random Thing in/of A Song of Ice and Fire variety should be avoided if at all possible. Brendan Moody 19:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- I for one am not too sure about this page. First, it is almost always a bad idea to provide structure before content in wiki-projects. Instead (like GRRM would say), wikis use a gardening approach where pages are refactored after they evolve into something. Currently, this page does not really know if it wants to be a List of strongholds in Westeros (which would treat Karhold and Harrenhal with the same level of attention), or if it wants to include notable stuff about certain castles. Much of what might go here might better be at the individual house pages. For example, Dragonstone forms a good subsection on House Targaryen, where it sits naturally and organically and can interact with the rest of the information. In short: I am not sure we need this page and would prefer to improve the (many, crappy) House XYZ pages by including strongholdy information. For example, House Stark would benefit from a really good Winterfell section. Arbor 19:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Actually, that's a good variation on the idea, using the strongholds as 'anchors' for other information on characters etc. Also, once more flesh is put on the bones of the article, we can reconsider the position then. I strongly suspect that we'll end up breaking the information off amongst other pages (so the info on Winterfell will appear on the House Stark page, Dragonstone will appear on the Targaryen page, Sunspear on the Martell page etc). I'll try and do some more work on this in the next few days.--Werthead 22:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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In the effort to clean up the length and scope of this article, I've created Minor houses in A Song of Ice and Fire and Cities in A Song of Ice and Fire. I've also started pulling some of the very minor characters and placing their one or two sentence entries in the List of Characters in A Song of Ice and Fire article. Pejorative.majeure 23:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I would suggest expanding on that idea, and placing all the villages on their own page, leaving the actual Strongholds (The Dreadfort, the Red Keep, Winterfell, etc) on the Strongholds page. This would not only cut down on the clutter, but really give this page a purpose, as well as making the title fit the page. I'd even do it if (and only if) it is agreed upon.JCSeer 04:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Individual villages in the Song of Ice and Fire are not anywhere near notable enough for their own articles nor do we really have enough information on each individual village/settlement to fill a article sized entry. Take a look at the guildline for fiction for a better idea of what does and does not need article length coverage. NeoFreak 14:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- That's not what I meant, though. I meant puting all the villages on one page, NOT giving each their own. With cities already having their own page, that leaves the actual strongholds, ie castles, keeps and forts.JCSeer 17:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- The hope was that this page would become a central listing of the "Places" in A Song of Ice and Fire. I don't think that the villages are notable enough for their own, seperate, listing. I wouldn't be opposed to a title change to "Places in A Song of Ice and Fire" or something else that more accuratly reflects the larger scope that this article has taken. If you want to add additional information try to keep it brief and concise on to the notable elements of added locations. While so and so village might be primarily constucted of bricks or something that isn't really imporant information and is very "crufty". If something central to the storyline happened there that would be a bit of information to add, as long as it is not just repeating information already covered in another article. NeoFreak 19:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Then yes, I would say a change in page title would be called for here.JCSeer 22:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- The hope was that this page would become a central listing of the "Places" in A Song of Ice and Fire. I don't think that the villages are notable enough for their own, seperate, listing. I wouldn't be opposed to a title change to "Places in A Song of Ice and Fire" or something else that more accuratly reflects the larger scope that this article has taken. If you want to add additional information try to keep it brief and concise on to the notable elements of added locations. While so and so village might be primarily constucted of bricks or something that isn't really imporant information and is very "crufty". If something central to the storyline happened there that would be a bit of information to add, as long as it is not just repeating information already covered in another article. NeoFreak 19:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- That's not what I meant, though. I meant puting all the villages on one page, NOT giving each their own. With cities already having their own page, that leaves the actual strongholds, ie castles, keeps and forts.JCSeer 17:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Individual villages in the Song of Ice and Fire are not anywhere near notable enough for their own articles nor do we really have enough information on each individual village/settlement to fill a article sized entry. Take a look at the guildline for fiction for a better idea of what does and does not need article length coverage. NeoFreak 14:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest expanding on that idea, and placing all the villages on their own page, leaving the actual Strongholds (The Dreadfort, the Red Keep, Winterfell, etc) on the Strongholds page. This would not only cut down on the clutter, but really give this page a purpose, as well as making the title fit the page. I'd even do it if (and only if) it is agreed upon.JCSeer 04:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
