Talk:Stopping power
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of the Firearms WikiProject, a project devoted to the improvement of firearms coverage on Wikipedia with an emphasis on civilian firearms. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. |
Contents |
[edit] Archives
Greg Glover 23:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality - Overpenetration
This whole article is rather poorly written and has an utter lack of references to back its strong claims, but the Overpenetration section is clearly and immediately biased, so I added a NPOV template there. A sweeping claim of "exaggera[tion] by those who advocate shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets" without any evidence whatsoever is first made, then later a single NYPD study is used as evidence that bystanders are not injured by overpenetration. This study is more relative to police tactics than to bullet dynamics. Honestly the whole article should be re-written without the subtle bias present everywhere, but perhaps this is a good starting place.
[edit] Third-hand original research
Everything here is based on what people think, without citations to sources. I'm going to start ruthlessly cutting every single unsourced statement out of this article to get baseless speculation out of wikipedia. Until this article has sources, it should be effectively blank. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- Alternately, you could at least do quick searches to find sources and leave a reliable article instead of a blank one. (No criticism intended, just suggesting)Gzuckier 16:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- Good luck finding any research and I hope you do. I spoke to a fellow in the FBI about 10 years ago. He was very candied about the research; a very nice guy. They don’t publish it. The FBI only publishes stats. The Arms Forces shut me out because I had no Press credentials. I have come a cross research from a group of Doctors. The group makes no-bones about its agenda.
-
- Ya, this article is bad. It would probably make a great magazine article. I have read far worse articles. Some of the articles I have read are pure fiction. However, this article dose not pass the stink-test as far as I’m concerned.
-
- Okay I didn’t read the whole article. When I got to the part about, Dynamics of a Bullet, I knew immediately that someone didn’t know what they were talking about. How do I know? I spent a lot of time on the phone interviewing ballistics engineers from several major bullet manufactures.Greg Glover 17:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] FBI Document
I had seen a few months ago this document: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf It seems to be a serious FBI document about stopping power in police shootings. If only 1 or 2 solid torso shots can be expected on the entire shooting (as the document says), then obviusly the missed shots are much more dangerous than the shots that have completely penetrated the target (which are less in quantity, and have loss a great deal of velocity).
That document even is in the Links section, it's called "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness". I think that warning should be removed, the information is there to support it.
- I just finish reading the report from the above link. I feel bad that this law Enforcement agent that missed the entire point of the date he was reporting on. His conclusion while correct was only a fluke and based on the “Ballistics Work Shop report of 1987. The Special Agent showed through his conclusion the he didn’t understand the data, because his conclusion is based on a test between a 9mm Lugar and .45APC. To draw a conclusion based on two cartridges (both not appropriate for humanly dispatching the human species) and applying to all bullet-cartridge combinations is ignorant at best.
- I can assure you with out any research, if a human is hit anywhere on the body (including a hand) by a 41.9g (647gr) bullet out to and including 300m (328) by a .50BMG, he or she will go down. No amount of study concerning the 9mm Lugar will ever show its ability to kill a human (one shot) less a brain shot. And that’s a fact.
- But to make my point more salient without the hyperbole, it is not the job of law enforcement to use firearms to “stop” people. Therefore any report form law enforcement concerning “stopping power” is immediately suspect in my never to be humble opinion. The use of small arms within the law enforcement community is for the use of deadly force only and when a law enforcement agent feels his or her life is in immediate danger of life or death.Greg Glover 18:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- I take back what I said. The Special Agent’s conclusions were wrong. Saying ‘kinetic energy has nothing to with stopping power”, is like saying temperature can not cause a burn. What was this guy thinking?
-
- Oh, for those of you who are not following my analogy? The measurement of temperature is the measurement of molecules in motion. The faster molecules move the higher the temperature. And what is the movement of molecules? Yep, its kinetic energy.Greg Glover 23:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] There is no one definition for stopping power
The defense industry has a definition for stopping power. The law enforcement community has a definition for stopping power. The home defense industry has a definition for stopping power and the hunting community has a definition for stopping power.
I think the creator or major contributors to this article failed to see that not so fine point.
I am a hunter. If I need a firearm to stop a predator or charging animal I will pick the biggest firearm I can handle. Probably that would be a .416 Weatherby Magnum. For stopping intruders as a home defense weapon I would use my 12 gauge Over and Under with bird shot. The longest short from any room in the house is 25 feet. The pattern a that range is about 4 inches in diameter. As a former Marine I would like to see our troops carrying nothing less than a .260 Remington. Better yet lets got back to the 7.62 NATO round and top them off with 9.7g (150gr) Barnes Triple Shock’s. Our law enforcement community should carry any side arm he or she feels comfortable with.
When it comes to firearm projectiles, there are three scientific factors that determent a fatal wound: transitional kinetic energy; sectional density and bullet construction. All three factors must be in play and must combine to provide the proper wound channel for the specific intended target.
If you want to punch holes in non-yielding material such as steel only one factor need be in play: transitional kinetic energy per square centimeter. The amount needed depends on the thickness and alloy of the metal. This is of courses perpendicular impact along the z axis to the metal target.Greg Glover 20:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Revisionist Science
I checked out the link provided 01 JUL 05, to, “impressive-sounding yet meaningless terminology” within the “Stopping power” article. The response given, “Energy does not correlate whatsoever with wounding ability” is incorrect and I believe based in the same misunderstand of bullet behavior that most people have.
The report as illustrated by the graphs is impotent. The authors failed to take into consideration a bullet construction. Bullets are constructed to perform many different tasks. By thinking that all 9mm bullets perform the same and then lumping them in with all other handgun and rifle bullets is rather silly; don’t you think? Bullets even when within the same caliber are as varied as automobiles.
If we have five different bullets: Full Metal Jacket; Cast lead; Pointed soft point; Monolithic Solid and Truncated Solid, each weighing 11.7g (180gr) and having a muzzle velocity of 823m/s (2700ft/s). Do you think all these bullets will behave the same upon impact?
The answer is no.
Each of the five bullets will penetrate differing distances. Each bullet will create a different size “hole”. Therefore each bullet will create a differing volume for the wound channel. Also each bullet will arrive at the target a differing down range velocity. This is due to there differing construction which dictates a differing aerodynamic profile. Each of the five bullets will have a different Ballistic coefficient (BC). The scientifically proven and daily exercised equation for BC is a bullet’s sectional density (sd) divided by its coefficient of form (i) also know as the form factor. This equation was developed by Wallace H. Coxe and Edgar Beugless, Ballistic engineers of E.I. du Pont, Burnside Laboratory, Wilmington, Delaware ca.1936.
Kinetic energy correlates 100% with wound ability. The proven scientific fact and daily exercised equation of transitional kinetic energy is derived from Sir Isaac Newton’s second law ca.1665 and proven by Marquise du Châtelet Gabrielle-Émilie le Tonnelier de Breteuil (Émilie du Châtelet) using Willem 'sGravesande research ca.1740. Just check out the artical on Émilie du Châtelet here at Wikipedia.
In conclusion the stuff you people are arguing about is a college survey class known as physics 17. This is high school level physics. It has been settled and proven science for the last 267 years. Can we please stop with the revisionist science?
Greg Glover 14:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
