Talk:Steve Bartman

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[edit] Branch Rickey quote

Branch Rickey may indeed have said "Luck is the residue of design" at some point in his life; but the originator of that quote is John Milton. I've changed the entry to reflect that. Weirdoactor 19:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV complain

"bartman urged fans to consider that one play could not account for eight runs in one inning, though considering the importance of the play it may have done just that."

I think that the bolded part tends to throw off the balance of the article since it seems tinged of opinion. We're talking NPOV here. Of course, I'm sure this article has seen FAR worse than this.

Charles M. Reed July 9, 2005 06:27 (UTC)

I don't remember did the ball bounce off of Bartman's glove into the stands? --Gbleem 15:00, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I thought I remember a story where the people who ran the stadium snuck him out the back for his safety. --Gbleem 15:00, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think they should turn him into a good luck charm and require him to be at every game. --Gbleem 15:00, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The ball was given a final meal of steak and lobster." Huh?--Wasabe3543 17:42, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You read that right. The ball's owners treated it like a condemned prisoner, as part of the whole publicity stunt. - jredmond 18:53, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] wow

great article. very well written. Cacophony

[edit] I blame Bartman

I know that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and saying it wasn't his fault. Maybe he wasn’t responsible for giving up 8 runs. That is true. But, he is responsible for making a major screw-up and changing the momentum of the game.

I was there that night. 5 outs from the World Series. Alou threw a fit. Dusty should have pulled Prior. We were so close.

I still remember the feeling that night. The only way that I could describe it was to imagine yourself watching a loved one get into a life threatening car accident and you are in a position to do nothing about it. My heart sunk. I still recall the physical dread in my chest.

But, I still blame Bartman. I have season tickets. I sit on the wall on the Right Field side. It is a fans responsibility to realize your potential to impact a game. Many balls have come close to me. Yes, you’ve probably seen me on TV. I have caught some. I have let some go – ones that I could have caught. Why? Because I realized the potential to effect results of the game. The fans can, and do, impact the game. You are responsible for your actions.

Bartman claims that he’s a true Cubs and baseball fan. I say that is a load of B.S.. If that were true, he would realize that a $14 baseball is not worth the awesome potential of screwing your team out of a very critical out. I call it selfish. He had one thing on his mind “I’m going to get playoff ball!” A real fan would have stood back.

Wait until next year!


Grow up you crybaby. George Ramos

Then apparently, there were no 'real fans' in the stands that night, because everyone within two rows was also reaching for the ball.

Oh, God, I am so sick unto death of "fans" referencing things like "momentum". Anyone who has ever played a sport, especially a sport like baseball (momentum MIGHT have more importance in football, since it is such a physical, emotional game, in contrast with baseball), will know that one play cannot "shift momentum". If you have a significant lead, and a play doesn't go your way (on or off the field), it shouldn't make a difference. If a player had made an error in the field, and then 8 runs scored, that's the pitchers fault, not the fielders, because he did not keep his emotions in check.
Additionally, everyone who has ever been to a game reaches for foul balls. Everyone. Without exception. I have never seen anyone restrain themselves ever, and I have been watching games (usually about 100 a year) religiously for well over a decade. Even in the very picture on this article, everyone in the frame is reaching for the ball. So stop with this nonsense. There is no "a real fan would have stood back" because that is complete hogwash. -- Ubergenius 15:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder what excuse would be used if the ball had been just three rows further into the stands, making it impossible for Alou to touch. The rest of the game would end up the same, and Game 7 would end up the same, but Steve Bartman would no longer be the excuse. CodeCarpenter 21:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No, Blame Moises Alou and Alex Gonzalez

"Gonzo" booted a double-play ball that would have choked off the rally. If I were in Bartman's shoes, I would be watching the ball coming at me, not worrying about the fielder. Alou reached into the stands and couldn't make the play. He reacted like a jerk. If he had shrugged it off, Bartman would not have been scapegoated for the Cubs own inadequacies and mistakes in that inning. The Cubs did it to themselves. Wahkeenah 9 July 2005 06:54 (UTC) (Cubs fan since 1960).

[edit] white sox/marlins

There's really no evidence at all that white sox fans or marlins fans are responsible for Mr. Bartman's notariety. I've removed those items pending some sort of evidence to back up that claim.

To the contrary, Marlins fans feel their team won, and that Bartman had nothing to do with the result ON THE FIELD, and White Sox fans could care less about the Cubs, they have their ring and their jinx is gone. Cubs fans ripping this guys beating him up in the stands, and publishing his name for all to see are the cause of his noteriety, not Marlins and White Sox fans. CodeCarpenter 21:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay rumors

Can we adda gay rumor section, there has been rumors that he might be gay.

I doubt a gay rumor section would follow a neutral point of view, let alone have much merit at all. Such rumors are likely started by those angry at him. Besides, does it really matter? --meatmanek 11:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

We do not post rumors about someone just because some yahoo posts something in a forum. How sad and pathetic. Fan-1967 16:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Game 6 NLCS Broadcast

Does anybody know where we could get a video of the game for the Game 6 NLCS Cubs vs Marlins, or the radio broadcast?

ESPN Classic plays it a few times a year during the start of the baseball season and again during the playoffs. I am sure copies are also out there on EBay. CodeCarpenter 21:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bartman Scapegoat?

I found lots of references to Bartman being a scapegoat, but nothing that would be linkable. I guess someone with better resources will have to get the links for the Scapegoat factor section, or it will end up remaining in the circular file. CodeCarpenter 18:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason I deleted the section is not the statement that Bartman was made a scapegoat, but rather the mini-essay that went along with it that provided no sources. For the record here it is below.
  • Bartman became a scapegoat for the Cubs' failure to advance to the World Series. Part of the intrigue of sports is the tendency among some fans and writers to ascribe supernatural characteristics to teams. Teams that seem to win frequently, such as the New York Yankees or the University of Notre Dame, are said to have a "mystique" or "aura" about them. Teams that seem to fall short frequently, such as the Cubs and the Boston Red Sox (until 2004) are said to be "cursed" or "jinxed." In specific cases, disappointed fans may look for a scapegoat. For instance, Red Sox fans often blame Bill Buckner or team owner Harry Frazee (who sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees); Cubs fans now often blame Bartman or an actual goat.
Maybe other editors could chime in about this ? -- No Guru 18:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I found this discussion by the originator of the text User_talk:Hadal#Bartman, giving some reasons for the section. Even they feel it was general, so if they have no desire to add citation or create a sports scapegoat page, I have no problem with it being gone. I will comment to User_talk:Hadal and User_talk:Wahkeenah regarding the deletion, just to be fair. CodeCarpenter 20:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads-up. I shortened it to keep it within the realm of the rigid standards enforced by this so-called encyclopedia-that-any-moron-can-edit. Wahkeenah 01:13, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Good job ! -- No Guru 04:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Everything I wrote originally was certifiably true. I could add back the part about Buckner, for example, as there are plenty of sources, including interviews with him in which he expresses his ongoing bitterness at being made a scapegoat for the Red Sox's entire-team ineptitude in 1986. However, I've had about enough of belaboring the obvious here. Wahkeenah 05:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You seem a little upset about this. That section had no sources and read like an opinion (Part of the intrigue of sports is the tendency among some fans and writers to ascribe supernatural characteristics to teams.). But it's sourced now and the article is all the better for it. Like I said. Good job. -- No Guru 17:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge of Bartman Ball into this article

I'm proposing a merge, but really, there isn't any info in Bartman Ball that isn't already here. The only additional information there is the names of the broadcasters who worked the explosion. Any objections to me adding those names to this article and turning Bartman Ball into a redirect? --Djrobgordon 22:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The first half of the Ball article was already included in greater detail on this page, and the second half had more to do with the "ending the curse of the billy goat" event, so I moved the information to that page.TheGreenFaerae 07:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
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