Talk:Starka

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[edit] Ethymology

I de-Lithuanized the article and expanded the history section. JUst ask me should you need to know why ;) Halibutt 15:23, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, expansion seems to be logical despite I was unable to found sourcess for the facts you added. The only thing I think is totally incorrect now - classification of starka as kind of vodkas. This is simply incorrect: whiskies are not vodkas despite them are produced from rye. General difference is based on the production method: vodkas are produced from rectified spirit, but not from distilled, like whisky, samane, starka, brandy, etc., also, flavouring of vodka is made by addition of aroma, but not by aging. So I suggest change article and, maybe, adding of explanation. Also, ethymology of "starka" word should be put back - we have at least three different explanations now. Also - description of traditional producing methods shuold be put back too. --Gvorl 08:29, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps we're simply using different terms. In Polish, vodka is any kind of strong alcohol. And a moonshine, which is distilled but nor rectified. The difference is made onto clear vodkas, which are mostly produced by mixing rectified spirit with water, and quality vodkas or natural vodkas, which are made of raw spirit (distilled, unrectified), often aged or mixed. The most prominent of the Polish encyclopedias, the PWN, even lists starka as one of the examples in the article on vodka. So, the problem is with terminology: in Poland any kind of strong alcohol (brandy, starka, gin and many more included) are technically vodkas. Feel free to disambiguate that in the article. As to the sources for the article - I have a number of books on my shelves, I can add them to Bibliography if you like. Also, the first starka I made personally is already some three years old :)

Yes, exactly different terms :-) I think it is related to your history of strong drinks. As far as I know, actually vodka (both term and drink) was invented in Poland, so it is natural that you use term vodka for brandies, bitters, whiskies and other drinks too. But I think it would be good to have such disambiguation in vodka article, what do you think? Also, do you have some quality vodka produced in villages? We call it "samane" in Lithuania. --Gvorl 20:06, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

As to the Lithuanian ethymologies - they simply seemed incredible to me - what has stork to do with vodka? It simply seems to me like a fishy way to invent some Lithuanian ethymology instead of using the Slavic one, which I find much more credible. Feel free to add it though, if you find some explanation for it. Halibutt 11:40, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

There are two LT ethymologies: the first one from ingredients ("starkiai", lime flovers), second from "starkus". The later one is related to traditions of starka producing (birth of son, but it may be less grounded than the first one). --Gvorl 20:06, 11 September 2005 (UTC) (kwiat lipy in Polish)

I think in Polish culture "starka" = "aged vodka". I have the feeling however, that as a drink it's more popular in Lithuania (this speculation is not based on any research, just personal observation ;-) It would be interesting to compare volume of production as well. I would not be surprised to see Lithuanian production of starka higher than Polish, but I might be wrong again. This said, I'd be a little cautious regarding the Lithuanian ethymology (remember that the drink originated in 15th century). It would be also interesing to know where it was first mentioned. --Lysy ^(talk) 14:05, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, it will be difficult to find first mentioning of it to me. Actually, in Lithuania up to now there are discussions about where and when production of starka started. Also I was unable to find what volumes of starka was produced in the last years. But actually, yes, it is really popular in Lithuania. :-) --Gvorl 20:06, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Again, the Lithuanian ethymologies seem fishy. I still fail to see any connection between lime flowers, which were most surely unavailable in Lithuania prior to 20th century and the strong alcoholic drink.

Maybe I used wrong word which I found in dictionary :-) Lime (UK), linden (USA), see Tilia. There ar several other ingridients too, like flowers of birch, apple and pear leafs, etc.

As to the popularity of starka in Poland nowadays - it is being produced in two Polmos distilleries. Alas, they produce high quality drink which is more suitable as expensive gift rather than for students going to the party (more than 50 PLN as opposed to roughly 20 PLN for a bottle of dry vodka). That's why it cannot be popular in any way (at least not as popular as cheaper drinks). It's the same with cognac, whisky or imported brandies. Halibutt 20:30, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Here is my private opinion about this. Starka seems to be promoted in Lithuania as a traditional national beverage. Given certain anti-slavic attitude in Lithuania (no offence, but I'm sure you'll agree there is some) this would of course be hard to accept that is had a Slavic name which could indicate Slavic origin as well. Therefore the Lithuanian ethymology was "discovered", probably at the turn of 19th/20th century or even later. When I was discussing this recently with my Lithuanian friends, they did not even know that Starka was made in Poland. Now, obviously it must have been one of the drinks of PLC. There's no point arguing whether it was "Lithuanian" or "Polish". I have no doubts that even if (I think) it had originally Polish roots, it is much wider recognized in Lithuania today than in Poland, where many people did not even hear of it (as I believe it was not produced under communistic regime or at least was not available). I sveikata ! --Lysy ^(talk) 20:57, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

About roots - it is very difficult to separate Lithuanian and Polish history up to ~1863, so it is difficult to say, where production of it started. Anyway, seems that starka is not "central european" by its roots, but for the most, PLC. Huh, by the off-topic - I was in Poland few months ago and specially searched for Polmos Starka because of good reviews in the Internet, but was unable to find not only Polmos, but even other kinds :-/ Seems that it is not very popular in Poland. In Lithuania there is almost impossible to find alcohol shop where you can not buy starka, but those kinds are not very high quality, mostly produced without or almost without natural aging. I sveikata! :-) --Gvorl 15:45, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, indeed, during communist times such luxurious drinks were available to but a few. As far as I remember one of the Polmos factories used to produce it in small quantities and the drink was at times available in Pewex and in shops for party members only (yellow curtains shops). Average people could buy only dry vodka and, if they were lucky, some beer from time to time (in late 1970's it was easier for my dad to buy a student's airplane ticket to Prague and have a beer there than to find a beer in Warsaw - seems like a joke, but it isn't). Of course, the tradition of making starka at home was not killed (I learnt it from my dad, who in turn inheritted it after his), but the popularity of any traditional drink other than low-quality vodka was seriously limited. The same goes for traditional tinctures, vodkas, fruit liquors and others.

As to our times - most shops with alcohol near the place where I live offer at least one brand of starka. However, I have yet to see it sold in supermarkets... BTW, going to Lithuania I'll make sure I have a bottle or two with me. :) Halibutt 16:52, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

How about two sections in the article: Lithuanian Starka and Polish Starka ? It's probable that two distinct traditions developed over last 100 years in both countries, like Scotch whisky and Irish whiskey ... --Lysy ^(talk) 17:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Huh, at first we need to clear up where are the differences :-) But it can be. If differences really exist. :-) --Gvorl 20:13, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

No problem, send us some bottles over here and we'll surely taste the differences ;-)

But seriously, maybe I'm inventing things here, but differences might be in production technology. Halibutt will surely know more about the "Polish" technology, no "lime flowers" etc. Polmos Szczecin seems to have its pride in that they are using 300-500 litre oak barrels (used before for white wines) for aging Starka in their cellars 16 metres underground. Most of their Starkas are 50% strong. I don't know if that matters, but it could be educative to know how Starka is produced in Lithuania nowadays. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:30, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, in Poland if anything is added to starka, it is tinctures rather than raw ingredients. Also, it's really the first time I hear of lime flowers in a traditional recipe. It would be equally exotic as bananas, pineapples or mangos. Halibutt 09:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, again, you missunderstood again :) that thing is lime-tree flowers or linden-tree flowers, or lime-blossom, etc, see Tilia (pol. Lipa) which has nothing to do with lime or other exotic :-) Also, actually, in LT factories starka is produced mostly with herbal extracts too. It is globalisation - chemistry involved everywhere - detergents with natural apple extracts and apple juice with flawours identical to natural ones :-/ ...

[edit] Samane

I'm curious about samane, maybe the same as Polish samogon. Any idea about ethymology here ? --Lysy ^(talk) 17:21, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Ethymology seems to be from "samanos" - "moss", but I couldn't figure how it is related, maybe because of most producers do that in forest :-) Actually, yes, this is samagon, but only rye samagon, in contrast to russian beet, turnip, sugar, potato, etc., samagon (I had tasted samane from wheat, but this is not typical). In smal quantities samane is produced in some factories (at least Alita, but I heard there are more similar tries), but the best kinds - illegally in economies of Dzukija (South-East Lithuania). In the most cases it is produced by two distillations, resulting in 50-70% alcohol drink with strong rye aroma. When buyng good samane from economy, it would cost from 8 to 15 litas per half/liter, compare with typical 10-12 litas per half/liter of vodka. In economies starka is made from samane. Is this popular in Poland - quality vodka made in home? --Gvorl 20:04, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it's popular (and illegal). Technology and tradition may vary depending on the region. I know Dzukija is great (also for its mushrooms, but that's a different story) but I've not tried neither samane nor starka there. OK, I think we're diverting too much off-topic here ... :-) --Lysy ^(talk) 21:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

If it's two distillations, then it's okowita in Polish. AAMoF most of old recipes for starka indeed mention okowita rather than spirit. Halibutt 23:37, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

BTW. okowita = aqua vitae. I thought it was just name for vodka, correct ? --Lysy ^(talk) 03:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, since we are offtopic already, let me ask one more question: Do you have any information about the cucumber vodka made in the area of Kedainiai ? Does it have a name ? Is it still made there ? Have you tried it ? --Lysy ^(talk) 21:39, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

LOL, it sounds to me like joke :-) In Kedainiai there is pickled cucumber factory which belongs to one of most important lithuanian populist politicians - Viktor Uspaskich, so maybe this was presented like joke. Some of my relatives are from Kedainiai, but I haven't heard anything about cucumber vodka. Also, technologically it is almost impossible to make vodka only from cucumbers because they lack sugar and other hydrocarbons, so even if such kind exists, it should be some kind of brandy or bitter, or, in other case - by addition of cucumbers to broga (I do not know how to call this thing in English). --Gvorl 06:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

As to okowita - indeed, the ethymology you cite is right. And the name itself was used since Middle Ages for the only vodka (Polish term - strong alcohol, not necessarily vodka as such) people knew - that is the distilled but not rectified version. And that's how the term is sometimes still used. BTW, the "voltage" of okowita varied anywhere from 20% to over 70%, with 30-50 being typical for double distillation. Halibutt 09:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if your broga is a mixture of water, sugar and yeast (famous 1410 recipe :) ), then it's called mash in English (and zacier in Polish). Halibutt 09:47, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is broga, but samane is produced from bit different kind of mash, which is mixed from sprouted rye instead of sugar --Gvorl 16:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course, I know, I only used the 1410 as an example to be easily understood (is the 1410 recipe popular in Lithuania as well? In Poland every child knows it). In reality, you could prepare a mash of wooden stool or your grandma's curtain. The taste might be strange, to say the least, but you can make alcohol of almost any organic substance one can think of. My friend even once tried to prepare a herring vodka... I was lucky to be away so that I didn't have to try it... Halibutt 19:19, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

LOL!!! Your friend is bit crazy :-))) Actually, you can not do any alcohol from any substance except sacharose or glucose (main component of sugar), because of yeaset do not eat any other substances. Using malt (actually maltose ferment which is naturally produced in sprouted grain) you can process starch into sacharose, so, this thing will help you in case of you are making alcohol from grain or potatos... But not from fish, because of there are almost no hydrocarbons at all. Maybe your friend added there sugar or starch? And about that famous recipe - yes, all the people know this. But actually good recipes are for grain spirits :-) --Gvorl 20:27, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course he did add sugar to it. Though, frankly speaking, I don't know if it was better as a 35-40% alcoholic beverage or just a mixture of herring with water and yeast... Probably the taste was similar... yuch. The same goes for grandma's curtains or a wooden stool - you would have to add sugar, just like to potatoes. BTW, in Eastern Poland, close to the not-so-tight border with Belarus, the most popular base for moonshine used to be... Belarussian sweets. A kilo was much cheaper than a kilo of pure rafinated sugar.

As to other differences - I noticed that in Lithuania most of Polish (all right, all right, I know you prefer to call them Lithuanian :) ) drinks are prepared with more herbs. This goes also for krupnik, which - as far as I know - is also known in Lithuania. Halibutt 18:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lithuania

What happened to Lithuanian Starka ? According to this page, it is still produced. --Lysy^talk 10:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It died. No one is producing it nowadays. Stumbras' Starka which was linked in this page is just coloured vodka. Sigitas 10:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops, you are right, they even explain it in their page :-( --Lysy^talk 10:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Stumbras' Starka is not aged: "Joint Stock Company ‘Stumbras’ produces such Starka in accordance with the old traditions. STUMBRO STARKA bitter is made of rectified grain ethyl alcohol of the ‘Extra’ grade produced by means of the triple distillation, which is made only of the grain raised in Lithuania, drinking water filtered through a six-stage filtering system (including filtration in the way of reverse osmosis), and ratafia made of the raw material of vegetative origin, applying a specific technology. To achieve transparency, the bitter is filtered through specific filters, using the filter cardboard of the highest grade. All of that enables ensuring that the product’s taste and flavour, as well as other quality indices, are always steady." Sigitas 10:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)