Talk:Staraya Ladoga

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[edit] Redirect?

Why does "Ladoga" redirect here instead of to Lake Ladoga??--Kallerdis 20:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, calling Staraya Ladoga "the first capital of Russia" is hugely anachronistic which is to say, plainly wrong: Russia did not exist yet in the 8th century. Staraya Ladoga was a settlement that did not administer any tribal unions or lands. It was a trading (and raiding) outpost, not a capital of anything.

Agreed. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Second, the word 'Vikings' CANNOT be used interchangeably with the word 'Norsemen' or 'Scandinavians'. The Vikings were the raiders of the shores of Western Europe, a people defined by their occupation as well as by their ethnicity. The settlement at Staraya Ladoga had a rather large population of craftsmen. Many - perhaps most of whom - appear to have been of Scandinavian (Norse) background. Few - if any - were involved in naval raids and expiditions that define the word viking in English and traditional Scandinavian usage. They were NOT VIKINGS. They were, however, Norsemen (Scandinavians).

Agreed. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Third, the statement "In 862, the legendary Varangian leader Rurik arrived to Ladoga and made it his capital" is not verifiable in any meaningful way, contradicts the sole reference to Rurik we possess (i.e. the Primary Chronicle, which states that Rurik was invited from overseas and established himself in Novgorod), and does not mention the fact that Rurik quite possibly was a legendary character.

Disagreed. See here. --Ghirla | talk 16:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 997 attack

This web page says:

"The earliest trustworthy record of the Ladoga posad, which surrounded the citadel in a fan-like fashion, was made in 997, to the effect that a Norseman, jarl Eirik, had raided the area and burned it down. Around the year 1000, a new timber-and-earth fortress was built to replace its stone predecessor destroyed in 997."

Does anyone (Ghirla?) know what the sources for this are? I know that Fagrskinna and Heimskringla (using Bandadrápa as their source) say that Eiríkr Hákonarson sacked Ladoga between 995 and 1000. But I'm a bit surprised to see talk of a "trustworthy record". This sounds a lot like a destruction and rebuilding of the city just before 1000 is confirmed by archaeological evidence - but it's not quite explicit. Does anyone know more or know where I can find out more? Haukur 15:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should take the epithet "trustworthy" too seriously. They probably meant "first mentioned by a Western source", that is, by Snorri Sturluson, who wrote centuries later and cannot be trusted as a very "trustworthy" historical source. Forget about this touristy web site. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 18:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The site you added says much the same: "Первая крепость была построена Олегом Вещим на рубеже IХ-Х в.в. и разрушена ярлом Эриком в 997". There's also [1] which says the same, citing an overview of Ladoga in Norse sources from 1945.

You're right that Snorri wrote centuries later and is hardly completely reliable. But this story is also in the (slightly) older Fagrskinna and, more importantly, there is a skaldic verse which probably dates from 1000-1010 which states that Eric "broke Aldeigja". So, as Norse history goes, this is not so unreliable. What I really wanted to know was whether this was contradicted or supported by archaeology or continental sources. As far as I can see so far there are no written records on Ladoga from this time and historians seem to accept the Norse narrative as "trustworthy". I still wonder whether there is any relevant archaeological information. Thanks for the help. Haukur 18:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Tatiana Jackson of the Russian History Institute, the chief living authority on Norse-Kievan relations, writes in her "Austr i Gordum" (2001), page 108: "If back in 1941 Professor Rydzevskaya was constrained to acknowledge that prior excavations in Staraya Ladoga "did not reveal any traces of fire which could have been explained by the 997 expedition", the findings of the 1980s reversed this point of view. So, the excavations conducted in Varangian Street (on the left bank of the Ladozhka River) ascertained that "all the structures from the 2nd basic level" and many of the 3rd level structures "have traces of having perished in fire". It should be specified that the 3rd archaeological level of Staraya Ladoga is dated from 951 to 995; the 2nd level was formed in the 10th century as well. According to V.P.Petrenko, "one of these disasters was connected with the 997 campaign of Jarl Eirik" (see Петренко В.П. "Раскоп на Варяжской улице (постройки и планировка)", стр. 91, 92, 115, published in Средневековая Ладога: Новые археологические открытия и исследования. Л., 1985). The same may be said about the earthen ramparts (Земляное городище) of Staraya Ladoga, where "the badly damaged level XI" (dated to after 980) "perished in a fire" which is linked by the archaeologists to "the expedition of Jarl Eirik in 997" (see Мачинский Д.А., Кузьмин С.Л., Мачинская А.Д. "Ранние скандинаво-славянские контакты по материалам Ладоги VIII-X вв.", стр. 166, published in X Всесоюзная конференция по изучению истории, экономики, литературы и языка Скандинавских стран и Финляндии. Ч. 1. М., 1986)." --Ghirla ^-трёп- 13:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow!! Thanks so much :) This definitely belongs in the Eiríkr Hákonarson article and I see you've made a start of working it into the text. We should probably add something to this article as well. Haukur 13:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I see the text you quoted can be found here: [2] Haukur 14:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It so happens that I have the book in my home library. If I knew it is available online, I wouldn't bother typing all this stuff. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it's great to have the page number of the printed version. Could you check the listing I made for the book in the references section of Eiríkr Hákonarson? Do you have information on the publisher? Is there an ISBN? :) Haukur 20:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)