Talk:Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Films, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to films and film characters on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start
This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
High
This article has been rated as High-Importance on the importance scale.
This article is part of WikiProject Star Trek, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to all Star Trek-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Star Trek Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science Fiction, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on science fiction on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page. Please feel free to add your name the project participation list and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.
Article This article is a Article.

Shouldnt this be Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country?

Huh? Isn't that what it is? Kevyn 22:19, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Alternate Battle Ending?

A while back I heard a rumor that the battle between the Enterprise and the Bird of Prey was originally to be different. In the alternate ending, the final torpedo fired by the Bird of Prey doesn't hit the saucer but hits the bridge, killing everyone there and making Spock, McCoy, and Scotty the only survivors of the main cast. Anyone else heard of this alternate battle ending?

[edit] Revised scenes?

What is the other revised scene in the Special Edition? The box says there are 2 revised scenes by Nicholas Meyer. There is one obvious change, the intercutting of the named co-conspirators during the mindmeld scene -- beneficial if you have no idea who they are, but it really interferes with the power of the take. Apparently the other change wasn't offensive enough for me to notice it -- what was it?

[edit] Versions?

Does anyone know if this film was cut for its video release. I remember seeing it at the cinema, then on video, and noticing both the new scenes with Colonel West but also that some stuff I remembered seeing at the cinema was missing. I can't for the life of me now remember exactly what, though.

No the film was expanded for video. They expanded Col. West scenes and actually added a reason for why the Klingon assassin had the wrong color blood (he was Col. West disguised as a Klingon and so bled red and not purple). You'd think they'd have kept that extra 60 seconds in the theatrical version. I think the video release is like 8 minutes longer than the theatrical release.

[edit] Trivia

  • Spock to Kirk: "There is an old Vulcan proverb. Only Nixon could go to China."
  • Spock's line about an ancestor of his saying that "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth' is quoting Sherlock Holmes. One of Meyer's first books was a Sherlock Holmes story: "The Seven-per-Cent Solution" and there has been comsiderable fan speculation over the years that Spock's mother was a descendant of Holmes. CFLeon 00:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I don't know about "considerable". There was an article in Trek about it once. That's the only other place I've heard the theory. If I recall correctly it was intended as a whimsical comparison of the two characters, nothing more. Kasreyn 10:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been to at least 2 West Coast conventions in different cities and almost a decade apart that had panels on the topic. It may not be a major theme in Fandom, but then I didn't say it WAS. Perhaps my choice of term wasn't the best, but I do know that some fans will speculate on ANYTHING if you throw it up at them. CFLeon 23:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
  • A large part of Kirk's animosity towards the Klingons comes from Star Trek III when his son David Marcus was killed by a Klingon, and reference is made to this by showing Kirk looking at a photograph of him. Merritt Butrick who played the part of David died in 1989, aged 29.

[edit] Spock's Mom

Spock's mom could not be a relative of Holmes, since Holmes is a fictional character. Spock was referring to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, at least in the literal sense. So perhaps she's related to the author of the Holmes stories and novels, but no "living" person can be related to a fictional character.

I hate to spoil it for you, but Spock is a fictional character, TOO! I just made the comment that there'd been fan speculation about a connection between Holmes and Spock BEFORE Star Trek 6 came out (and I have never heard any speculation that Doyle was an ancestor). Didn't say I BELIEVED it to be well-founded. But I did think it was a nice in-joke for the fans. CFLeon 23:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, you have a good point. But remember, within the ST world, they treat some known fictional works of our world as if they're fiction in the ST world too. For instance, Spock gives Kirk a copy of "A Tale of Two Cities" for his birthday, and Khan quotes from "Moby-Dick". My guess is that any fictional story presented within the ST world which predates the first 5-year mission of the original Enterprise is really considered to be fiction. Which would mean that, within the ST universe, Sir Conan Doyle's stories would be fiction, not reality. Within the (fictional) ST world, Spock is "real" and Holmes is fictional. Does this make sense? Kasreyn 16:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In Star Trek: TNG, which is canonical with this movie, it was established that Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character penned by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (it was a genre that Commander Data visited more than once in the holodeck).
Absolutely. Holmes is fiction in the ST canon. However, as hinted at above, there's no reason that Spock couldn't be claiming descent from Doyle. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this? The Marvel Comics Universe has a lot of characters who are publicly known but generally believed to be fictional, such as Dracula. Is it not possible that Star Trek might have something similar? In a TNG episode, Guinan, who likes to namedrop was comparing Wesley's out of control nanite experiment to someone she claimed to know once: a Dr. Frankenstein. Remember that Watson was writing about Holmes' adventures. Maybe Doyle knew Watson and took the credit. Kind of like, maybe the real H.G. Wells met that famous unnamed time traveller and was a guest at his house on that day the unnamed time traveller spun his tale.Mr. ATOZ 18:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Decommissioning

Regarding "We're to put back to spacedock immediately...to be decommissioned." Although it's POSSIBLE Starfleet's orders meant Enterprise was being decommissioned, it is FAR more likely the order was referring to the CREW. Officers are commissioned as well, remember, and during the early briefing scene, it was clear that the crew was retiring (ref. McCoy's "Maybe they're throwing us a retirement party" to which Scotty replies "That suits me. I just bought a boat!") Kirk's agonizing over the realization that this is finally "the end" at least as far as his commanding a starship goes.

"Mothballing the fleet" is moot - the briefing dismisses that idea since the "scientific and exploration programs would be unaffected" - and Enterprises primary mission IS one of exploration, not combat.

Simply put, the crew knew they were done, were "volunteered" for one final mission, and were a bit surprised at the abruptness of the order, but they knew it was coming. It's not surprise, but sadness you see on their faces. And Kirk's final line is "making a point" to Starfleet (to hell with the regs, we'll come in when we're ready) which is very much in keeping with his character. The fact the crew was assigned such a mission was a surprise to them all during the briefing - they all figured it was retirement time.

The bugs encountered in ST5 have apparently been resolved. Keep in mind that the end of ST5 and beginning of ST6 allows for months or years to have passed. I don't recall a single real malfunction in ST6. In fact, the Enterprise holds up well under extreme stress.

Final point - "this ship, and her history, will soon become the care of another crew" (or something along those lines) at the end of the film strongly implies that the Enterprise herself will be re-crewed. This is somewhat borne out by the number of years that pass between ST6 and Generation. At the time of ST6, the Enterprise A may be 5-10 years old, so if another 10-15 years pass between the end of ST6 and the launch of 1701B, the ship could be 25 years old. It certainly makes more sense that a 25-year old ship based on a 40 year-old design would be retired at that time.

[edit] Worf

Kirk and McCoy's attorney is quite clearly referred to as "Counsilor" not Colonel."

In a military trial, an attorney can be both a counsel as well as hold active duty rank such as "Colonel", in which case Worf's ancestor could be both. Kasreyn 21:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed my DVD recently, with the audio, subtitles, and closed captions on. During the early part of the trial, the Judge clearly states "Colonel Worf, we are interested in facts, not theories" and all 3 (audio, subtitles, closed captions) agree that he says "Colonel." This is the only time his name is mentioned in the movie. In the closing credits, he is refered to as the "Klingon Defense Attorney." The Memory Alpha website refers to him as "Colonel Worf." Even the official Star Trek website calls him "Colonel Worf." I have a hard time finding him refered to as Counselor outside of WP. While he is also a Counselor, he is refered to by his rank: Colonel. I would suggest avoiding the use of Counselor for him in WP, because the title of his own article in WP is Colonel Worf. CALQL8 03:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether the character is referred to as "counselor" or "colonel" elsewhere in WP is entirely irrelevant. You were right to go back to the main source, the film itself, but I am astounded by your insistence that they "clearly" call him "Colonel Worf"; I've seen this movie several times, from several different sources -- theater, TV, DVD, VHS -- and I just watched it AGAIN to make sure I wasn't just imagining things -- and in every instance, the character is referred to as "Couselor" Worf, as clear as day -- never, ever, "colonel." I won't change it back, because I know how Trekkers freak out when they're corrected on Wikipedia, and I don't care for revert wars, but WP -- both here and in other articles -- is just plain wrong when it refers to him as "counselor." Minaker 23:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Definitely "colonel" in both the cinematic version (which was just on TV) and the extended version (which I have on DVD). The following quotes occur about 43'51" in the extended version:
  • Worf: "Or perhaps they merely wore Starfleet uniforms."
  • Chang: "That remark is purely speculative, I move that it be stricken."
  • Judge: "Colonel Worf, we are interested in facts, not theories."
Unfortunately the subtitles on my copy just have him say "We're interested in facts, not theories." (which even adds a contraction to his sentence!), so I have no pictorial evidence to offer (and I'm not going to buy a DVD audio-ripper just to get this one quote). Of course, in other dubbed languages it might be "Counselor"?
I'm also wondering what Minaker's on -- he even contradicts his claims with his last sentence! (Or has a mischevious vandal been through this page?) Dave-ros 21:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to re-start this argument, but to answer your question, Dave, that contradiction in the last sentence is a result of vandalism; it looks like someone re-worded my argument for some stupid reason.Minaker 06:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shakespearian themes

In Hamlet, as noted in the Trivia section, "the undiscovered country" refers to death, but Chancellor Gorkon states that it refers to "the future" (as do others taking their cue from him). Is this just a mistake, or are "death" and "the future" unified themes in Klingon culture, and possibly even the same word in their language? (They do, after all, have sayings like "this is a good day to die!")

A list of Chang's Shakespeare quotes and their origins would also be a good idea -- I don't know them (apart from the obvious "To be or not to be", which comes from the same play as the film's title quote), but someone with more time on their hands than me might ;-) Perhaps a subsection on "Shakespearian themes", containing the appropriate bits from Trivia? Dave-ros 21:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/t/a/Talk%7EStar_Trek_VI%7E_The_Undiscovered_Country_a026.html"