Talk:Stalemate
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Will people who are changing the image markup please note that in order for the article to make sense, it is necessary to have the second diagram (the Gelfand-Kramnik one) to the right of the part that says "The position to the right..." (in the Gelfand-Kramnik paragraph). I realise that as things stand this means having a certain amount of white-space in the article at certain resolutions. Maybe by shuffling around or adding some text this can be overcome, but it's not worth making nonsense of the article for. --Camembert
I do not understand why the position in the lower left corner of the first diagram is a stalemate -- if Black is to move, the pawn can capture the queen. -- Zack
- Black moves down the board. That's the convention used in all chess diagrams, unless otherwise stated. -- Arvindn
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- Oh. Of course. I think the pawn being on rank 2 threw me off. -- Zack
At the bottom of the article we have "There have been calls to make a stalemate a win for the stalemater." I don't think I remember hearing anything about this. Who has made such calls, and when? --Camembert
- This Larry Evans article doesn't say who, but it does mention it (calling it crude):
http://www.worldchessnetwork.com/English/chessNews/evans/040726.php
- "A crude proposal that keeps popping up is to award a loss to the player who is stalemated. " --Bubba73 05:56, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "silly" paragraph removed
The edit comment was: (you can't move the king on the first few moves, obviously, so do those people believe that all games are instant stalemates?)
I see this misconception all the time in scholastic players, even in tournaments. Even in a tournament 6 days ago. I know it is obvious, but it is still a common misconception. Bubba73 (talk), 21:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- What if we say that it is a fairly common misconception among novices? That is a true statement. Bubba73 (talk), 21:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- I guess I don't understand correctly what the paragraph said. The next time I play chess, whatever my opponent does on their first move (unless they move their king's pawn), before their second move I'm going to declare "Your king has no legal move, so it's stalemate". I'd bet that, no matter how novice they are, they'll understand I'm teasing them.
- If the myth is actually different from what I understood, then it would have to be re-added, but reworded in order to make its meaning clearer. BTW, I've never heard of this in Italy. --Army1987 13:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
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- It happens fairly at the scholastic level here (at young as 5 or 6 years old). (and they only seem to think so near the end of the game.) Last month a kid from my daughter's school aparantly fell for it and got talked into a draw. I had to give a lesson to it to her school's chess club two weeks ago. At a tournament one week ago, a kid tried to claim a stalemate on my daughter that wasn't a stalemate. Bubba73 (talk), 00:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I saw it was readded, in a better form. At the scholastic tournaments around here, for the 4th grade and under, if they think the posisiton is a checkmate or stalemate, they have to raise their hand for the director to confirm it. There are quite a few instances of wrong claims. Bubba73 (talk), 15:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Army1987, actually a move of the queen's pawn or king bishop's pawn also lifts the "stalemate." This section strikes me as silly, even if young beginners do sometimes have this misconception. The definition of stalemate given in the article shows that this misconception is wrong. It also makes no sense, since as pointed out in the text the opening position would be a stalemate if it were true. But if others are OK with it I'm not going to take it upon myself to remove it. Besides, I like Bubba73. :-) Krakatoa 04:03, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, I put that (more or less) in there originally, I think. Someone took it out as being silly, there was some discussion, and it was put back, with a few changes. I wouldn't mind if it was left out. But my 9-year-old daughter has been playing for nearly three years, and I've seen this misconception a few times in her age group. One in her school got tricked into it in a tournament, so I gave a little lesson on it to her school club. I even had someone try to pull it on me at the National High School Championship in 1970. I don't know if they just didn't know the rule, or were hoping that I didn't or didn't notice that they had anothr piece that could move. I don't object to it being taken out. Bubba73 (talk), 04:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Effect on endgames
There is a section about what effects would the change have if a stalemate would be a win for one side. Why does the "Stalemate positions are possible with a king plus a lone bishop or a lone knight against a king." line appear there? It is not about any of the effects of a possible rule change. I have once deleted it, but it was reverted because "it is true and stalemate is possible with king+bishop or king+knight against king". I know it is possible, but it is irrelevant! We were talking about the effects of possible rule change could have on the endgame. So I suggest again to remove that line. It can only cause confusion. --V. Szabolcs 13:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- Well perhaps, since it doesn't really affect endgame theory much. I put it in there because if one of these positions came up, under the current rules it would be a draw. If a stalemate was not a draw then these positions would not be a draw. Bubba73 (talk), 18:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, with your latest addition it seems much clearer now. We could continue to argue that it is impossible to force a stalemate in those positions so they would still be a draw.. :) but I think that line is good enough now as it is. --V. Szabolcs 18:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
