Talk:Squall Leonhart

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To-do list for Squall Leonhart: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
  • Wording seems clumsy: "most of the game centers around Squall's perspective." "Squall sparks... a growing romance" "a distinct rivalry"
  • More explanation would be helpful on the gunblade ("given a damaging vibration feature by use of the gun mechanism")
  • Doesn't make sense: "especially when they wish to understand how he is feeling."
  • Borderline not encyclopedic: "yet to be vanquished"
  • Remove spaces before citations, and watch location with respect to punctuation
  • Rename "Overview" section; perhaps a video game equivalent of "biography"? Or maybe just "Final Fantasy VIII"? That would make sense given the following section, which could be renamed "Other appearances".
  • Citations for last paragraph of "Kingdom Hearts" section and the "Other" section?
  • more perspective from the creators if that's possible;
  • Needs a minor copyedit in the Kingdom Hearts section
  • Images need fair use tags
  • some sentences repeat themselves in the Kingdom Hearts section.
  • the section on the ending of Final Fantasy VIII needs more explanation; I haven't played the game, and it wasn't all clear; how was he in his fathers body?

Contents

[edit] Amano?

The article states Squall was designed by both Nomura and Amano. Where is your source for this? I don't believe Amano did any designs after VI, therefore, shouldn't it just say Tetsuya Nomura? Yoshitaka Amano is credited as "Illustrator," this doesn't mean he designed any characters. --Feidian 07:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do you pronounce Leonhart?

Me and a friend is having a debate about it. I think it's pernounced Lion-heart and he says Leon-heart. They hinted it throughout the whole, such as the lion creature, known as Greiver, on his Gunblade. Greiver wasn't in any other Final Fantasy games. His final Limit Break is called Lionheart. And much more that I can't of off the top of my head. What do you guys think?

Ryu Ematsu

How do you pronounce Leon? And actually, the name has to do with lions, since Leon probably comes from Greek (leon in Ancient Greek means lion). YF-23 20:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks alot. Ryu Ematsu

[edit] Article needs attention

Although this article does contain some truth, most of it sounds quite POV. A glaring example of this is: "he is visually based off of Japanese singer Gackt". Unless the character designer specifically said that he or she has actually done that, that statement cannot be made in the article. Nearly everything in the "Psyche" section sounds like a psychoanalysis made by a fan (or fans).

While the article is not very encyclopedic, I didn't delete anything because a lot of it makes sense. Even if the article is not factual, we must remember that this is a ficticious character we're talking about. It's not as if some high school student is going to do a report on Squall.

With all that said, if some sources can be added, the quality of the article will be drastically improved (even if the sources are just links to forum discussions).

Someone42 14:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Hey I woul ilke to request for an article about emotional defence mechanism and about silent type boys with cold behavior [edit on 02:21, 11 October 2005 UTC by user Highbreed ]

Can you clarify on exactly what you mean by this? I assume you're referring to an article listing apathetic male video game characters. In that case, I'm not really sure what the purpose of such a list would be, since details of emotional defence mechanisms are inherently speculative.
By the way, remember to sign and timestamp your posts with four tildes: ~~~~. I've added the relevant information to your post here to aid other users. Someone42 10:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


Oh dear god, who the hell wrote that! It has to be changed now. Wait is this page meant to be about Squall? I know lots about FF VIII - just ask me! For example; do you know why they began fighting in the first place? Hint: Blue Fields, get my meaning? Someone42 if you’re such a know-it-all; why don’t you handle the article. Jinu 19:36, 17 January 2006 (GMT) xenosagaus@yahoo/hotmail.com

Whoa, no hard feelings there. I didn't intend to come across as a know-it-all. It's just that Wikipedia has different goals from that of say, Wikicities or GameFAQs, and so it should have different content. I really should have referred to Wikipedia:NOR as the policy I was following when I reverted that change.
In particular, there is no way to verify the psychological state of a fictional character. Any one of us may claim to be the world's expert on FF VIII, or Squall, or video games, but if a claim is not verifiable, then it shouldn't be included.
With that in mind, why don't you join Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy? You seem to be knowledgable about FF VIII, and there are certainly articles related to FF VIII that need improvement. No-one "owns" or "handles" any article - everyone who wants to does. Someone42 13:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] River Phoenix?

While I admittedly see the resemblance (it's quite striking), anyone have a source for this assertion which also appears on Tetsuya Nomura's article? UOSSReiska 23:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Trivia Section

I think this whole part needs to go: "Squally is an extremely popular final fantasy character. If ranked based off of the gamefaqs tournament he'd rank 4th behind Cloud Strife, Sephiroth, and Vincent Valentine respectively." That is completely speculatory as this matchup has evidently not taken place even by the standards of whoever edited it in, it refers to Squall by a nickname, and finally I don't really think that part is necessary as it seems more like some fan trying to boost Squall's status. I would just delete this, but I'm still learning the do's and do not's so I'd rather someone who was sure about it fix it up.

Secondly, I have a problem with this part: "Due to his popularity, Squall plays a much larger role than the rest of the Final Fantasy characters in the Kingdom Hearts Series." Again, Squall's popularity is mostly debatable, and it's arguable over whether or not he plays a "much larger" role. But I'm not the best at wording things, so I'd rather hand this job to someone more experienced. Eternal Trance 01:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I went ahead and just removed both of those two and the recent addition about the Lion King that was nonsensical and looked like vandalism. --Eternal Trance 20:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End of FFVIII

I've wondered for a while (for thoses who played and saw the ending of FFVIII) did Squall die at the end of the game? Please respond in a timely fashion please.--Lionheart Omega 01:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Squall did NOT die at the end of the game. The penultimate cut-scene shows Rinoa gesturing to somebody off screen, and if you wait until after the end credits, there is a cut-scene showing that Rinoa was in fact gesturing to Squall with her finger in the same way she did when they first met. I missed this final part in my first play also, it's quite common for people to miss it. I personally feel that this final cut-scene should have been left out, but i guess Square thought otherwise. Plebmonk 00:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I played the PC version of the game. I don't know if it's much different, but in the very last ending sequences Squall is definitely alive and well. The last scene is with him and Rinoa locking lips then it zooms out and shows them all on the flying Garden then it says "The End." He's definitely alive.

And if you're really a skeptic, think, would they have a party if the leader of their organisation died? ;p Zerocannon 08:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur, after all FF8 is a love story if Squall died it would be pointless. -Eileen-

I would like to point out Eileen that Romeo and Juliet was a tragedy and by the end most of the interesting characters were dead just a point of information.Squall1991 04:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Squall's birthplace

To stop people from putting in speculative birthplaces like "winhill" birthplace should probably put as "unknown" to make the point that it is unknown rather than just not putting it at all. Plebmonk 23:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Considering that Raine and Laguna are very, very strongly implied to be his parents, and Raine stayed in Winhill while Laguna was out and about, its safe to say that Winhill is where he was born. Peptuck 14:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned in another discussion, while Squall's parents are heavily implied to be Raine and Laguna, it's never explicitly stated. Furthermore, it's not impossible for Raine to give birth elsewhere, even if she usually lives in Winhill. So while Squall was most likely born in Winhill, we can't say he was definitely born there. Bhamv 14:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I'm going to modify and hopefully remove the trivia section. It's unencyclopedic and unnecessary.--TheEmulatorGuy 04:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Forget it, I can't find appropriate places to put the information.--TheEmulatorGuy 04:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I know, something really needs to be done about it. I'd like to first off say that we don't need any more garbage about his popularity. This is entirely opinionated and not necessary. Also, it needs to read more like an encyclopedia, and have more facts and less fanbased opinions and observations... --Trance 18:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

And keep Gackt off the page as well, too many fanboy/girls these days Zerocannon 08:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement possibilities

Some suggestions:

  • Wording seems clumsy: "most of the game centers around Squall's perspective." "Squall sparks... a growing romance" "a distinct rivalry"
  • More explanation would be helpful on the gunblade ("given a damaging vibration feature by use of the gun mechanism")
  • Doesn't make sense: "especially when they wish to understand how he is feeling."
  • Borderline not encyclopedic: "yet to be vanquished"
  • Remove spaces before citations, and watch location with respect to punctuation
  • Rename "Overview" section; perhaps a video game equivalent of "biography"? Or maybe just "Final Fantasy VIII"? That would make sense given the following section, which could be renamed "Other appearances".
  • Citations for last paragraph of "Kingdom Hearts" section and the "Other" section?

Not bad overall though. Maybe some more perspective from the creators if that's possible; otherwise, if this is comprehensive, it's approaching FA status. Needs a good copyedit though, and the prose needs to be tightened. --Spangineeres (háblame) 00:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA thoughts

Someone beat me to the punch, but here is my take;

  • images need fair use rationales.
  • some sentences repeat themselves in the Kingdom Hearts section.
  • the section on the ending of Final Fantasy VIII needs more explanation; I haven't played the game, and it wasn't all clear; how was he in his fathers body?

Overall, GA status is deserved. Give it a good copyedit before FA! :) Judgesurreal777 16:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think fair use rationales are satisfactory now, the only picture that didn't have it very good was Squall as he appeared in Kingdom Hearts series, and I've corrected it. ILorbb 09:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Squall is in his father's body because Ellone is trying to find out about the past and so sends Squall into Laguna's body to accomplish it.

[edit] LIMIT BREAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think people should be aware of Squall's (ROCKSOME) Limit Breaks.

The article contained description of Squall's limit breaks, but it was removed. The reason for this is that Wikipedia is not a gameguide.ILorbb | Talk 07:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Laguna IS the father of Squall

Something everyone seems to miss is that, Kiros said that "You look alot like your mother". Now, let's say Laguna ISN'T Squall's mother, how in the hell would Kiros know how Squall's mother look like? It is then further proven that Ward says "At least you don't look like your father" Now regardless, Ward MUST know Squall's father in order to make such claims. There we have it, read between the lines ;D And, this is more like a discovery of concrete proof, instead of uh "Oh, you JUST found out?", lol But ya, i guess that little speculation section will have to be removed? Zerocannon 10:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they didn't put any solid proof that Laguna is Squall's father, so that entire section needs to be removed as OR. — Deckiller 15:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Didn't you read what I just wrote? Lol This is concrete enough, if everything 'solid' must go by verbatim, I do believe everyone in the states wouldn't be holding onto firearms right now ;p Zerocannon 05:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I did read what you said; I'm saying that the OR policy won't let us synth those quotes and situations without a scholarly source to back up the claim. — Deckiller 06:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squall's gunblade as a gun in FFXII

Aside from Gilgamesh using it, it appears as the Ras Algethi as a gun weapon. Don't know why this keeps getting removed. -Badass McGreat

[edit] Picture

I'm sorry but I like Squall's other picture than his official one, and so do a lot of other people and since no one owns Wikipedia and its open to the public, in my opinion since he's not used the official picture until recently when a small clique of people have forced their opinions, we should go with the majesty. So get rid of the official picture for all FF8 characters, they are so old we need new ones. -Eileen-

What the hell are you talking about? Both of them are official. The sketched one is artwork by Tetsuya Nomura, and the rendered one is publicity artwork by the modelling team, which was likely sketched beforehand by Tetsuya Nomura. --TheEmulatorGuy 23:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I will stop reverting the pictures back to the one on the pages originally for now as I do not want to get into an edit war. I think the sketch should be used for the reason being the pictures in the info boxes for FF8 characters can appear in the body of the article easily and the sketch is something different, which does contribute to the article. And the person who keep changing the pic is from IP 67.142.130.xx which I suspect to be the same person. Furthermore, I think any changes to the picture used in info box should be discussed first before it's changed, as there is no official rule on which picture to used. I reverted the changes based on this argument. Furthermore, the picture in Squall's article is too long, which means the info in the info box cannot be read without scoring down, which defeated the purpose of info box, and it is sigificantly different from the pictures used in other articles. I would like to see some standardized format across all FF8 characters pages if possible. Any comments? --Cyktsui 05:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. — Deckiller 06:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think to make everyone happy we should cycle the images every once in a while. People still have to score down because Squall's picture still is too big. What does everyone think? I didn't have the intention of pissing off anyone, I liked the previous way better. I understand your reasoning for the Squall article but what's wrong with doing it the old way for everyone else? Up until the past two months no one minded.So here is what I think we should do for all articles, cycle the pictures between the old and current versions every two weeks or so. That way everyone can get what they want. What do you think? -Eileen-

That's probably not a good idea. In my opinion the drawn concept artwork shouldn't be there at all, it's not even in the game. The rendered artwork is too long to place in the infobox. A screenshot (probably FMV) of Squall seems to be the most suitable. --TheEmulatorGuy 03:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that the drawn concept artwork does, in fact, appear in the game. The character portraits in the game, which you can see when you go to each individual character's status or junction screens, are the drawn pieces (admittedly a trimmed version, with just the head and face) Bhamv 07:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If you look at the articles for FFX characters, they are using artworks in the info box too. --Cyktsui 05:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you totally EmulatorGuy, but apparently we are in the minority, maybe we should pose this question to Deckiller and Cyktsui. How about it? -Eileen-

I have a great idea to settle the image dispute. It is to keep both but put the official Nomura stretches next to the paragraph about development or overview of the characters so people can see what the characters look like in development and the picture what they look like in the game at the top next to their name and other info. Does anyone object? If no one does, could someone make the change? By the way, could we get a new image of Squall, to replace the render which is kinda large. I suggest maybe a FMV from the beginning of the game. How about it? -Eileen-

[edit] KH Section

I edited the KH section some. I just changed a few things, and added a paragraph for Sora's keyblade homages. Lionheart08 00:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimecia

Why does someone keep reverting that Ultimecia is the antagonist to "main antagonist". I think that there's no one else that fits the description. Any thoughts? Does anyone mind if I revert it? I'd really appreciate feedback. -Eileen-

If we're pedantic, it would be more accurate to call Ultimecia the main antagonist or primary antagonist. Seifer, Raijin, Fujin, Edea (to a point), NORG, President Deling, etc are all antagonists at some point in the story. Ultimecia is the primary antagonist because she's the driving force behind the challenges in the story, the challenges that the protagonists have to overcome.
Personally, I have no opinion on whether the article says "antagonist" or "main antagonist", since both work and it seems like a minor detail. But perhaps "main antagonist" isn't really that wrong. Bhamv 13:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I understand your reasoning but can we leave it as antagonist? I'd really appreciate it. -Eileen-

[edit] Hero - NPOV?

I wrote silent hero in reference to the game manual's description of Squall as "the taciturn and reluctant hero." -Eileen-

What was wrong with "main/primary protagonist", which is what he is? His characteristics are described later in the entry. — Deckiller 02:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
"Silent hero" is incorrect. He is not a silent protagonist. Peptuck 07:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I rewrote it to be taciturn hero. Is that ok? Frankly I think he is a silent hero otherwise how would he get the nickname lone wolf? -Eileen-

"Lone wolf" refernces his tendency to remain apart from others and work on his own. "Silent hero" implies silent protagonist, which he is definitely not. Peptuck 20:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Taciturn hero. Is that ok? -Eileen-

I believe everyone agrees that was fine how it was. GA analysis didn't have a problem, nor did editor consensus. Wikipedia must operate on consensus. — Deckiller 23:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The word "taciturn" in "taciturn hero" also doesn't sound very NPOV, as it requires subjective judgement. My feeling is to change it back to "main protagonist," because readers can read the description of Squall in later sections and decide for themselves whether he's taciturn or not. Bhamv 14:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The article currently still says "hero." After thinking about this some more, I believe "hero" is POV and should be changed to "protagonist."

A protagonist is the main character in a literary work or drama, or in this case a video game. A hero is a person of great bravery who carries out extraordinary deeds. Thus, "protagonist" is an objective description of a character, while "hero" requires subjective judgement on whether the character posesses great bravery and performs extraordinary deeds. Clearly, then, "protagonist" is more suitable for an encyclopedia.

(By the way, I'm paraphrasing Wikitionary for my definitions, in case anyone's wondering)

This is why I think the article should say protagonist. I'd be interested in hearing the other side, though, so if you'd be kind enough to tell us why you believe "hero" should be used, Eileen, we could possibly come to a consensus. Bhamv 12:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The consensus is already against Eileen anyway. I'm returning to the appropriate phrasing. — Deckiller 21:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thirding this notion as well. I'll adjust any future changes; while "hero" sounds nice, Wikipedia is a neutral resource. Peptuck 02:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for asking for my opinion. Here it is: I just wrote hero because I think it fits Squall and it simplier to write. I don't have anything against protagonist but it seems long and overused. Hero is also the more common word, Nomura even uses it in an interview. I'd say regardless of whether a person likes Squall or not he is brave enough to go out into space to save the woman he loves, isn't that extraordinary and what about fighting a sorceress that is more powerful that you are? I am dedicated editor like you all and I have been taught a great lesson about writing that is "Experienced writers use simple words to explain complicated ideas". I like you all but I think you all look too deeply into the "encyclopedic proper language" instead of the vernacular which in this case is hero. (You could argue that we should Latin instead of English with that argument). I've read alot about main characters on professional sources and 3 out 4 sources refer to the protagonist as "hero". While it is true and important that Wikipedia is indeed an encyclopedia, it is informal since anyone can edit, and that is why the easy four letter word --hero--should be used. However, if I was writing an English paper I'd use protagonist. "Experienced writers use simple words to explain complicated ideas" should be everyone's principle in my opinion. One more thing, I'd like to add is that this "objective" idea is a myth. Everyone has proved the very opposite. If we were objective then we wouldn't be discussing this. (Everyone has an opinion and a world view which we look through to judge what is important and what is not). I think we should replace "objective" with fairness to all parties. How about this: if can't agree let's cycle the words. (For example keep it as protagonist for 2 weeks then switch it to hero for the other 2? I won't revert if not else does. What do you all think?) -Eileen-

Irregardless of your personal opinion, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a literary work. "Primary protagonist" is an objective label that is direct, simple, and just as easy to understand, and defines Squall as exactly what he is: the primary protagonist. "Hero" is a potentially loaded word, and is partially ambigious, while "primary protagonist" defines exactly what he is. Additionally, if Squall is "the" hero of the story, where does that leave the rest of the cast? They themselves are heroes of the story as well. "Primary protagonist" defines what he is. Its simple, its objective, and it carries only that definition, and nothing else. even mor eimportantly, it sounds more objective and professional than "hero."
Though I'm seriously wondering why we're arguing over something like this in the first place. Perhaps we should simply do what the Link article did, and use hero? Peptuck 22:53, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
No, because the consensus here is to use protagonist, so we should honor that. Only one person is complaining, and that person is relatively new to the systems of Wikipedia, so s/he may not understand how we work. — Deckiller 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for sharing your views, Eileen. A few points I'd like to address though:
The word "hero" is shorter than "protagonist," this I do not dispute. However, it is detrimental to the article if you choose to believe that "hero" and "protagonist" are complete synonyms. They're not. The definitions I posted above clearly indicate this. Experienced writers use simple words to convey complicated ideas, but not at the expense of the integrity of the idea.
Therefore, should we use the word "hero" or the word "protagonist" in the article? As as been repeatedly stated, "protagonist" is an objective description of Squall's role in the game. I strenuously disagree with your assertion that objectivity is a myth, because the evidence you posted (that this argument is going on at all) is unfortunately a straw man. The statement that Squall is a protagonist is not colored by opinion - would reasonable people argue that he's actually the antagonist of the game? That he's actually a bystander? You yourself stated that you do not disagree with calling him a protagonist, so it's clear we have a consensus on "protagonist" being a suitable word to use in the article.
"Hero," on the other hand, has a clear consensus against it, though I note you disagree. You stated that you feel "hero" is a suitable description for Squall because he went out into space to save Rinoa and fought a sorceress more powerful than he. But I can play devil's advocate and come up with arguments disputing your evidence: Rinoa went off alone to confront Edea with the Odine Bangle, are we to call her actions heroic? Laguna fought off a Ruby Dragon with nothing but an unfamiliar gunblade, is he heroic in this example? Or do we say that many characters in FF8 tread the fine line between heroism and foolhardiness? Furthermore, when Squall can junction up to sixteen GFs to himself and boost his stats to 255 each, coupled with invincibility magics and repeated Renzokukens, can you truly call him weaker than any sorceress in the game?
Please note that these are not my personal opinions. I, personally, agree that Squall is indeed a hero. What I do not agree with is that the word "hero" be used to describe Squall in the article. The fact that I can easily come up with arguments disputing his heroism shows that calling him a hero is subject to a person's point of view. On the flip side, can you come up with any arguments disputing Squall's status as the protagonist of the game?
Finally, please note that Wikipedia is not based on fairness to perspectives. It doesn't produce articles based on all points of view, or even the majority view. Articles are written based on editor consensus and Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Your idea that we cycle the word based on our preferences (something you also proposed during the picture debate) is interesting, but inappropriate; firstly because the consensus is already to use one specific word, and secondly because it places extra and unnecessary stress on the Wikipedia servers and databases. Minor stress, to be sure, but it's still there. In addition, just because Wikipedia is open to everyone doesn't mean it's informal. The language used should be neutral and formal, and should not tell the reader someone is a hero. It should describe this person's deeds, and let the reader decide if the character is a hero or not. Please see WP:PEACOCK.
For the above reasons, which I'm sure have been far too long, it is clear "hero" is inappropriate while "protagonist" is better. Thus, the article should describe Squall as a "protagonist." Bhamv 06:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Peptuck just solved the problem for us. He's written hero but according to protagonist terms hero. Is everyone ok with this? I think it is a good solution and is it short like I wanted but is also protagonist which is consensus. PS. Deckiller, I am a girl. -Eileen-

To be honest, I'm not happy with this solution, as I do not believe the word "hero" should be used to describe Squall in an encyclopedia. My reasoning has already been stated above. I feel it should say "protagonist" and link to "protagonist." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bhamv (talk • contribs) 14:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
I am also not happy, because there was a majority agreement; compromise is unnecessary. — Deckiller 15:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Even if it is not exactly what everyone wanted can it stay as it is now please? (As primary hero.) I have to go. I'm celebrating Chinese New Year. -Eileen-

We'll have to see what the consensus is, I guess. Bhamv 05:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The hero/protagonist phenomenon has spread to other pages, including the Rinoa and Tidus articles, where the word "hero" has met with resistance and resulted in edit warring.

Eileen, can you not see yet that the consensus is CLEARLY against using hero and for using protagonist? Wikipedia is not built around acceptance of and fairness to all available points of view, because otherwise we'd have to describe these characters as protagonist/hero/playable character/tragic character/possible antagonist/etc etc. There are dozens of additional nouns that could be applied to video game characters. Wikipedia works on editor consensus, to determine the one best term to use. And in this case, the consensus is clearly for protagonist.

Yes, "hero" is shorter and possibly easier to understand. But "protagonist" is the more encyclopedic term and thus it is the more appropriate word to use IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA.

I apologize in advance if you find I sound unduly harsh, but this debate has gone on long enough and has always been, in my view, entirely unnecessary. It's time to end it and change the articles back to "protagonist".

(On an unrelated note, perhaps you should register for an account, Eileen. Virtually all the annonymous IPs you have posted from have a history of vandalism, which can make it hard for editors to take your edits seriously)

Bhamv 09:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

  • This entire "debate" is being posted on WP:LAME for, well, obvious reasons. And to be frank, I am sickened that this amount of time and text wasn't spent on, say, finding reliable sources and improving other aspects of this article or others. We're all at fault for that, including myself. — Deckiller 12:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you have consensus because Peptuck and I agree on this and it appears to be split half in half. Why is anyone complaining because your getting both: hero (the colliquial word) linked to protagonist. (Is encyclopedic since it is linked to protagonist and is short and is what we both want. Let's just do it like the Link character on Zelda. Also some people like me have never heard of protagonist and it is nice for the general public to see a word people can relate to linked to the less common protagonist. That's why I believe it although it doesn't satisfy everyone, it is best, and I will revert it back to Peptuck's version if changed.) It is sort of misleading to say that the whole hero/protagonist idea is being shot down, because it has not, other editors agree with my changes too. I have also convinced other people of this idea I'm referring to as well (Tidus and Rinoa's pages have accepted the new hero, it not like they didn't like the idea, some didn't understand why I changed it because I forgot to tell them, others didn't reject the idea but they didn't want the other characters appear to be shoved aside which I have since solved, so this problem is no longer true. I've talked to other editors and it has been met at first with critque and then I have changed minds. In conclusion, please give Peptuck's change a try and if more than 10-20 editors (to create more consensus than just us 4) disagree, (after I explain my reasoning, excluding you both) I'll agree to revert it. As a sidenote, I'm thinking about getting an account, I haven't because I have no internet experience and don't know how to make a user page and a talk page. If someone can guide me along, I can create both. -Eileen-

Protagonist is encyclopedic; hero isn't. I'm with Deck - I can't believe there's even an argument to be had here. The point of Wiki isn't to write in the nicest possible terms that the general public will like, nor to appeal to the lowest common denominator - it's to be factual, accurate, and neutral. "Hero" has definitely biased connotations. -RaCha'ar 12:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

While I cannot speak for Peptuck, I admit to being skeptical regarding his agreement to this solution, because he reverted the hero thing on the Rinoa page, and his proposal to use the method from the Link page appeared to be a way of compromising. Thus, from where I'm sitting, it looks like you're alone in promoting this solution, though I say again I cannot speak for Peptuck.
Perhaps a straw poll wouldn't be out of place if we want to determine editor consensus.
I don't believe Wikipedia should pander to the lowest common denominator, truly I don't. I don't believe the word "protagonist" is unnecessarily advanced. I don't deny it's probably more advanced than the word "hero," but it's not on the level of, say, "defenestrate," which appears in the Mace Windu article. If a reader really is confused about what protagonist means, the word is linked to its Wikipedia article.
The reason I'm pushing so hard for the word "hero" to be removed from the article is because I believe it seriously damages how encyclopedic the article is. Heroism requires subjective judgement, and Wikipedia demands objectivity. The relative lengths and complexities of the words become irrelevant. For example, the article on AIDS includes the line The late stage of the condition leaves individuals prone to opportunistic infections and tumors. If readers don't understand what the phrase "opportunistic infections and tumors" means, is it better to change the sentence to The late stage of the condition leaves people sick a lot? And have "sick a lot" link to something? Or, perhaps, is it better to leave the formal, objective language in the article and allow readers to click into the appropriate article when they encounter something they don't understand?
You never addressed the points I made in my really long post, regarding the encyclopedicness (is that even a word?) of "hero" and "protagonist," but never mind. I don't think it's appropriate for me to continue this debate further, because I don't believe you're willing to be convinced. And, as Deckiller pointed out, our time and energy could be better used elsewhere.
By the way, creating a userpage is not necessary for having an account, and user talk pages are used for leaving messages to one another. Knowing how to make them is not needed to create an account.
Good day. Bhamv 12:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
While I cannot speak for Peptuck, I admit to being skeptical regarding his agreement to this solution, because he reverted the hero thing on the Rinoa page, and his proposal to use the method from the Link page appeared to be a way of compromising. Thus, from where I'm sitting, it looks like you're alone in promoting this solution, though I say again I cannot speak for Peptuck.
-I changed my opinion on this matter because while I initially offered it as a compromise, I realized that it went against Wikipedia's neutrality policy. Peptuck 14:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, is it just me or is this discussion reaching the height of absurdity? Maybe its just because I'm running on two hours of sleep and no caffine, but I don't seem to be getting why someone is so stuck on the difference between a four letter word versus an eleven-letter word that means the same thing, is more objective, and is backed by general consensus and Wikipedia policy. Why is "protagonist" bothering you so much that you insist on removing it?
We all have better things we could be doing on Wikipedia. Peptuck 14:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
....okay, this is getting ridiculous. You are ignoring WP:Consensus and WP:NPOV. You are acting like you personally own this article - I know you probably do not feel that way, but you are acting like it, considering that you've constantly and repeatedly gone against the very consensus in this discussion with something that is POV, both of which are against Wikipedia policy. In a paraphrase of your own words, "articles are not owned by anyone." Yet you continuously remove what has, by consensus thus far, been added to this article and replaced it with something that is not from a neutral point of view. Please....stop. This article is not yours alone, so please stop applying your POV to it. Peptuck 19:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

WOW... just wow! I can't believe this is even an argument. "Protagonist" is descriptive, "hero" is normative. Both words apply to Squall, but only "protagonist" is appropriate. Not knowing a word is not an excuse to use a base euphemism. Bhamv hit the nail on the head with his comparison to replacing "opportunistic infections and tumors" with "sick a lot". One may be more advanced, but the simpler is often cruder, more normative, and inheritently innappropriate while not necessarily being incorrect. This is the same scenario with "protagonist" and "hero". Squall could be described as a "hero", but he is definitely a "protagonist". --Daedalus 20:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Peptuck, sorry, I accidently reverted it because I liked the phrasing in one of the paragraphs of his article. Anyway, I promise not to revert it back if you leave Rinoa's page as it has been for the past several months, not your most recent edits. Agree? -Eileen-

"Heroine" is as POV in her article as "Hero" is in this one. And why are you asking me? This is a question of consensus, not an argument between two editors. Peptuck 04:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking you because you made the change. Anyway, will you do that? -Eileen-

  • Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not about back alley "I claim ownership of this article, so any edits to it will require deals". We have policies to follow, and guidelines to uphold. One of those is WP:NPOV. — Deckiller 05:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
No, I won't. Why would I suddenly change my mind about what is obviously consensus and following Wikipedia policy? And even if *I* were to choose to stop, what about everyone else who keeps reverting your edits? Peptuck 06:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This is getting old. I'm won't change it, because I'm going after some vandals on Final Fantasy wiki. Why do you guys think some people vandalize? Is it for attention or a reaction? -Eileen-

I notice, Eileen, that you have very kindly refrained from changing Squall's article over the last few weeks. I also notice that you've not extended this same level of restraint to other Final Fantasy articles, and have added the words "hero" or "heroine" to them. And, I might point out, they have all been swiftly reverted.
Without meaning any disrespect, I cannot help but wonder if you are making these changes out of spite. I've been doing my best to assume good faith regarding your edits, but assuming good faith involves choosing to believe you're capable of determining and following consensus. And, to be brutally honest, right now you're showing you're either incapable or unwilling to follow the consensus against using the word "hero." I do not believe you are incapable, as clearly you are not a stupid person. Therefore, it would appear you're deliberately ignoring consensus in order to insert your own personal opinions into the articles.
If there are additional arguments in favor of using "hero" over "protagonist" that you feel have not been adequately addressed, please feel free to bring them up for discussion. Otherwise, your ignoring consensus is a violation of Wikipedia policy and may lead to some editors choosing to treat you as a vandal. Bhamv 10:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I second this sentiment. As I've said before, Wikipedia is an encyclopdia, not a fan site. "Hero" does not fit in a fictional character's article, as it does not follow NPOV. If I have to, I'll watchlist every FF character page to keep things neutral, just like I have many of the FFVIII pages already. Peptuck 23:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, I would strongly suggest you look at Wikipedia:Ownership of articles page. You areexhibiting the characteristics of article ownership by pushing this viewpoint. Peptuck 23:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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