Talk:Spring Heeled Jack

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[edit] SHJ in Monmouth, 1948

Mention of this alleged sighting has been added and deleted a couple of times recently (not by me)... for the record, the earliest mention I have of the supposed Monmouth incident is a one-sentence mention on fuschiashockz.co.uk, an online cyberpunk/mysteries 'zine, dating to the summer of 2003. Text reads, in full:

"The last recorded sighting of Spring heeled Jack came in 1948 when the

people of Monmouth in Wales saw a strange white clad man jumping back and forth between the banks of a river."

No source is given and I've never encountered mention of the incident elsewhere... it's certainly not well evidenced enough to be added here. Mikedash 18:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alsop and Sheffield

'He escaped conviction only because Jane Alsop insisted her attacker had breathed fire, and Millbank admitted he could do no such thing. There is little doubt that this, the best documented of all Jack's activities, was the work of a drunken carpenter.' How can there be little doubt if the witness herself said he 'breathed fire'? Also, has anyone else heard of the sightings from the 60's and 70's from Sheffield?(Halbared 10:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

The passage is confused because the first sentence you quote was written by the main author of the article, Shauri, and the second was interpolated a few weeks ago by a more sceptical user. Typical Wikipedia, in other words.
As for Sheffield, yes, reports from 1873 are documented; haven't got anything from the 1860s and would be interested to hear from anyone who does.Mikedash 12:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oblivion Reference

I have been watching the revert war over the pop culture reference of Spring Heeled Jack in the Oblivion game for a while now. I see no rhyme or reason for why this reference keeps getting removed. How is mentioning that Oblivion has a reference to Spring Heeled Jack less relevant than a little known band or that Morrissey has a partial reference in a song title? —Asatruer 19:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The various entries listed under pop culture are to help provide a feeling for how public perception of Spring Heeled Jack have changed over time. A minor mention of the name attached to a video game artifact that is not even important enough to be listed in the article about said game does nothing to impact public perception. Combine this with the wording of the addition placing greater emphasis on the game and the company that produces it as opposed to the mention itself and you are likely to find a very healthy number of people viewing the addition as spam. --Allen3 talk 00:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

If your concern is that mentioning Oblivion as having the wrong emphasis, rather than completely removing the reference, changing the emphasis would seem the better course of action. Though if the primary issue you have is that it does nothing to impact the public perception of Spring Heeled Jack, than I do not see how the Morrissey song or the band Spring Heeled Jack does this, nor — in all fairness — do I see the "recent" comic authors like Ver Curtiss, Kevin Olson and David Hitchcock as having any impact on this public perception of Spring Heeled Jack. It seems to me to be inconsistent to single out the Oblivion reference.
Perhaps renaming the "Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture" section is in order? How about "Spring Heeled Jack in literature"?
As for the "very healthy number of people viewing the addition as spam".
Jooler, Centauri, Ziul Leirbag, Bobblewik and myself have all either replace a removed Oblivion reference, or edited an existing Oblivion reference without removing it. Compared to Allen3, JeremyA and DreamGuy who have consistantly removed the Oblivion reference. By numbers alone, it looks as though both opinions on the matter seem to be roughly equal, with neither being a healthy majority. —Asatruer 15:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

As you do not agree with the argument that the referenced item is only an tertiary item and thus not significant, you must still deal with the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability. I have done some web searches and found numerous chat room references but nothing resembling a reliable source that supports the claim that the item has the properties described or that the item has any sort of connection to Spring Heeled Jack. --Allen3 talk 11:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you will find that Oblivion having an item called "Boots of Springheel Jak" is more verifiable from reliable sources as an item in that game than that the Morrissey song "Spring Heeled Jim" has anything to do with Sping Heeled Jack. If the Morrissey song is good enough to stay on the page with only a name that happens to be similar to the name of the article, I see no reason why an item in Oblivion that happens to have a name more similar to the name of the article should be repeatedly removed from the article. —Asatruer 15:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The requested reference for Spring Heeled Jim located and added. --Allen3 talk 16:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That referenced article draws no connection between the song title "Spring Heeled Jim" and the english folklore character Spring Heeled Jack. —Asatruer 17:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Remomved as horribly trivial and unencyclopedic. A mere mention in a game for an item based loosely upon a topic in no way meets the level of mention in an encyclopedia article. These kind of references do not meet notability guidelines and are routinely removed on other article, so of course they need to be removed here. DreamGuy 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Please explain why you feel a game reference is trivial fictcruft crap and why you are so vehement that it must absolutely not stay? Why do you feel that the fact that Morrissey happens to have a similar title is a more noteworthy reference. The song has no other connection or relation to Spring Heeled Jack other than a vague similarity of name, the lyrics have nothing to do with the folklore of Spring Heeled Jack. At least with the Oblivion reference about the "Boots of Springheel Jak" the name is more similar, as well as the item granting great leaping abilities to the wearer, clearly this is more likely a actual reference to the folklore character Spring Heeled Jack.
Also, you have made no comment on why you are removing the references about the recent comic books featuring Spring Heeled Jack. This is even more clearly on topic with this article than either a Morrissey song or an item in a computer game. —Asatruer 15:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Doing a google search for "Boots of Springheel Jak" shows to me that this item exists in the game and confers similar abilities to the wearer. I vote to add its reference back into the article. Jeff schiller 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spring-Heeled Jack in popular culture

I honestly don't know of any references to this other than an art gallery image[1] and his open-sourced game statistics, under the fiend entry and listed as "Jumping Jack" [2] (which lack the flavor text found in the product linking him to the folklore figure), but Spring-Heeled Jack (also called a "Jumping Jack, or "Bloodfiend" in the book) is a type of fiend in the d20 Modern Roleplaying Game. It can be found in the d20 Menace Manual.

A Screenplay has been written by a couple of UK writers on Spring Heeled Jack and the synopsis can be found at: http://inktip.com/searchbywriterid2.php. It has also been mentioned that this is also available on the script swap website.

I know of someone currently writing a story about a superhero based on Spring Heeled Jack, but he jumps with rocket boots or something.

[edit] NPOV

I had brought this point up in the past, but nothing was done about it, so I finally took care of it myself. The claim that Spring Helled JAck was real and actually existed and attacked people and so forth is a POV. Writing the artilce in such a way that the claims and reports and stories and legends are presented as 100% factual was a MASSSIVE violation of WP:NPOV policy. I have gone through and reworded many sentences all over the article to go with the neutral and factual information that people reported this things, that they were alleged, and so forth. This was badly needed and long overdue.

If you have a problem with some of the versions of the new wording, feel free to edit to try to make it read more smoothly. Do not, however, try to change the wording back to claim that these events actually did not happen, because that is taking a position on a controversial topic, and encyclopedia articles simply do not do that.

No doubt other edits will be needed to make the NPOV even more readable... I know the skeptical position of the article read like it was written by a proponent of the paranormal view who wsa trying to make fun of the skeptics or didn;t understand what they are saying. DreamGuy 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I support the removal of some of the less notable pop-culture references I think that going through the article liberally adding allegedly everywhere is unnecessary. I refer you to Shauri's previous comments on this matter. The claim that SHJ was real is not POV, in fact no author who has researched SHJ has questioned his existence--what authors differ on is whether or not SHJ was a paranormal phenomenon. The article as it was made this distinction clear, reporting the different explanations on equal terms and allowing the reader to decide. JeremyA 04:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A Screenplay has been written by a couple of UK writers on Spring Heeled Jack and the synopsis can be found at: http://inktip.com/searchbywriterid2.php

[edit] Pop culture references

I have reverted the blanking of valid pop culture references by Victrix, as the content is valid, on-topic, verifiable and there is no consensus for its removal. Editors should also note that there is strong suspicion that DreamGuy and Victrix are the same person. --Centauri 02:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

The article has now been protected to prevent this edit war from continuing as requested at WP:RfPP. Please work out your issues and reach a compromise. Once you believe that you have reached an agreement on the matter and protection is no longer necessary, please contact me or post a request for unprotection. Note that my protection of the current version is not an endorsement of the version; it merely got protected at whatever state it was at when I arrived. AmiDaniel (talk) 04:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to request that somebody please fix the Multiverse link (in the Paranormal conjectures section) to point to one of the actual multiverse pages (probably to Multiverse (science))rather than the disambiguation page. Could an admin take care of this, or anybody else once the page is unprotected? Thanks. --Mbell 22:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sockpuppetry + 3RR abuse

Further to my comments above it has now been established that DreamGuy and Victrix are indeed the same person. --Centauri 04:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Please take a look at the CheckUser scale of likelihood — Confirmed-Likely-Possible-Inconclusive-Unrelated — to avoid making erroneous claims. "Likely" does not rise to "established" — how could it, when the decision "confirmed" was also available to the CheckUser admin? If you want to invite admin action in this matter, please take it to WP:ANI, as I have already advised User:Englishrose.[3] It's better to get more eyes and an informed discussion, rather than posting your own idiosyncratic interpretation on talkpages as if it were uncontested fact. Bishonen | talk 14:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC).
Likely means just that - more likely than not. Your continued defense of DreamGuy/Victrix is puzzling to say the least. There is an extremely small possibility that they are not the same person, but all available evidence - and there is a LOT of it, extending over a LONG period of time strongly indicates otherwise. --Centauri 11:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

It's an article about a British topic, so "skeptical" should be spelt "sceptical". Any mods care to oblige? Thanks. —Wereon 19:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

No. English Wikipedia supports the use of both British English and American English, but not at the same time. An article should be written entirely in one dialect/whatever, and as it is already in American English, it should be left that way. Freedomlinux 03:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The appropriate guideline for this issue is Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English. Using the principle of "If there is a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, use that dialect" this article should use British English for this very British subject. --Allen3 talk 10:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request unprotection?

I have seen no substantive discussion of the problems in the article in the last two weeks. Unless there is objection, I will request unprotection. Calwatch 23:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been no discussion substantive or not so I agree, please do so if you have not done so already—Asatruer 14:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have unprotected it. Please discuss controvertial changes here rather than edit waring. --JeremyA 01:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


Could jack be active today Karzack 04:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, yes he could. It is very unlikly, because the last recorded sightings of him date back around two hundered years ago, but he still may be lurking around the streets somewhere. ~VNinja~ 01:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm very happy

Ok, so this might be kinda stupid to post this, buuuuuuut.... I used to be the only person who paid attention to this article for a while, after I archived the talk page, and a little while before. So I'm very glad that more people are talking on the talk page and helping out with this article... that is all. ~VNinja~ 22:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Very Cool

This guy looks very cool. I can see some kewl screen names coming from this guy.

[edit] ...in Popular culture, revisited

I just restored the last bit of the Popular culture section again and an idea occurred to me about this section. I agree with the sentiment that the section is getting a little long, but I think it would be better to consider splitting the section off into its own article, something link Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture. Add the {{main|Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture}} template to the top of this articles Spring Heeled Jack in popular culture section followed by a paragraph or two summarizing the old section then move it to its own article. I am worried though that this might be too small just by itself, but it is an idea.
Anyone have any particular opinion on the matter?
—Asatruer 17:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's worth its own article. We just need to trim down the verbosity of this section, it looks too wordy anyway. Jeff schiller 20:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Asatruer's idea is an excellent one. It has proved impossible to stop users, particularly Elder Scrolls fans, adding material that has very little to do with Spring-heeled Jack; simply editing down the section on popular culture has not worked. Mikedash 21:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Folks love the "...in Pop culture" thing: it gives them a chance to contribute (which is, I think, really good for first-time editors). On the other hand, it can easily turn into fan service, or bloat to the point where it over-shadows the source article. I don't, however, think that agressive deletions is the best way to handle the issue-- which I suppose is a long-winded way of saying that I agree with Asatruer. To go even further, I think that a Spring Heeled Jack (Elder Scrolls) page would probably be in order, if there is some particular wealth of information about whatever that might be. I have no idea what it might refer to, but heck, make an article, Elder Scrolls fans. Be bold. -mordicai. 21:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I added that the Marvel character Toad was likely inspired by Spring-heeled Jack, as he was a British character with a freakish appearance whose sole power originally was a boosted leaping ability. He was also created around the same time as the other characters mentioned. Please leave it be. If I can't find a direct quote from Lee or Kirby referencing SHJ I may delete it. Unsigned, but added by User:68.166.68.84

It really has to work the other way around. Find a reference from Lee or Kirby showing a direct link between SHJ and Toad, then add it - otherwise it's pure speculation, which has no place in an encycopedia. Mikedash 07:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've seen quite a few articles that state so-and-so may have influenced so-and-so with no citation. No one from DC or the creator of Zorro explicitly state that SHJ influenced Batman or Zoro as far as I know, but it's in the article. I don't really care though. 68.166.68.84 14:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm very unhappy

I'm looking for information on a siege weapon called a springhald, and I get redirected here >:( AllStarZ 03:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Spring heeled Jack versus Batman I remember reading a Batman story in an anthology celebrating a Batman anniversary (that also had a Black Widowers story by Isaac Asimov in it) where a student was possessed by SHJ after being cut by a razor that he had found after researching ripper crimes. SHJ was presented as some sort of God of the Razor who was conjectured to be the real cuplrit of the crimes of Jack the Ripper and other famous criminals, and lead to the student murdering several prostitutes around Gotham's tube system. Batman duly did battle and was only able to win when the moon was blocked by clouds during their final encounter, as this broke the link between the God and his host. The story was interesting for looking at how an obsession with urban legends ended up in making them come true, and also for testing Batman's belief in rational explanations for seemingly paranormal events. I can't remember who wrote it or what the anthology was called but if anyone out there knows it would be good to include it in the Popular Culture section. 89.242.221.68 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Lo

[edit] I'm very ambivalent

Footnotes are excellent to have, but they're an outdated kind. ;/

All right, this isn't a real complaint, just going along with a couple threads above. ;) CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 03:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

In the History section: first para says first reports in December 1837; second para says "Later, in October 1837..." PiCo 07:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Should be clarified. First newspaper reports were Dec 37. First rumours, apparently Sep 37. Mikedash 08:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent case

It was removed but I spotted the news report earlier today [4] and it does have SHJ parallels. I'm unsure if it is worthy of inclusion here but the source is AP so is fairly legit as far as it goes [5]. (Emperor 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC))

You should also note that of the two links provided, it is the blog and not the news report that mentions SHJ. As the reliable source only mentions Batman and not SHJ, it is original research to imply that this was a new SHJ sighting. --Allen3 talk 04:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
That was, sort of, my point (or I'd have put it back in but with the source). When you look at the original report it is rather sketchy (although it is SHJ-like). I will keep an eye out for follow ups. Interesting that one of the most recent cases was called the "Houston Bat Man" though. (Emperor 05:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC))
This morning's news indicates that the event was an apparent hoax ("Student lied about Batman, school says", The Arizona Republic, February 16, 2007). --Allen3 talk 17:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Good find. I bet there will still be a couple of attempts to add it back in before it fades away (the follow up never makes as much of a splash as the initial report). (Emperor 17:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC))
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