Talk:Spread of printing

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[edit] How to add further locations

Hello, I just opened this new article. One thing: I am aware that my source (Meyers Konversationslexikon) is pretty dated, but if you add new locations or revise current ones, please do so by giving a reference, so that the article becomes a reliable source for us all. Thanks Gun Powder Ma 17:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good start. so the users will know what item is verified as it gets improved, I've added a note. DGG 04:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Where should we ask users to add the footnote? With the date, the town, the printer or what? We need a uniform, intuitively understandable method, I just realise. Gun Powder Ma 01:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should be renamed, as seems only intended to cover movable type/Gutenberg style printing

Johnbod 03:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

What means 'only'? And renamed to what? Since all printing today, with an annual output of hundreds of millions of printed documents, is ultimately derived from Gutenberg printing, and since Gutenberg printing spread in a long process all around the globe to every single country, the name of the article is as appropriate as one can get. Printing as we know it is synonymous with Gutenberg printing. Regards Gun Powder Ma 04:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was wondering the same, because a week or so ago I was going to propose a page : spread of printing from china & Korea, in which all the various speculations could be put--but it does not now seem necessary as it was handled very well otherwise. I do think it could be clarified, if we could find a name, as I do not like any I can think of
  • Spread of classical printing begs the question, as the reader doesnt know what we mean by classical,
  • Spread of Gutenberg printing isn't idiomatic English, Spread of Gutenberg's printing isnt right
  • Spread of printing from Germany isn't exact for it includes the first stages within Germany
  • Spread of printing in Europe is something I have seen used, but this article covers beyond Europe also.

We should certainly discuss this first, for we will have to change a number of links. Johnbod, you've made the general suggestion. any specific ideas? DGG 06:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

- well I had seen the difficulties you set out, but I think something is needed: Maybe :

  • spread of movable type printing (or P with MT)
  • Modern spread of printing (or S of MP)
  • spread of printing in the Modern period

- something like that Johnbod 14:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grosse Deutscheland

Looking at your "Germany" list, this is bound to cause trouble soon! Do you know where these places actually are? When was Meyers published - 1942? I suggest you change the heading to German-language printing (which I imagine is correct), anglicise the place-names & link them. Otherwise you are bound to have NPOV trouble.Johnbod 02:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The only one who is in breach of WP guidelines is you. With comments (and headings) like this you only disqualify yourself. Gun Powder Ma 01:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I take it this means you cannot be bothered to clean up your mess! Or possibly that you think it acceptable to describe as "Germany" the capitals of Austria, the Czech Republic (plus several Bohemian towns), and to use "Ofen" for Budapest! Johnbod 15:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
You do not seem to understand. Unless you edit your brain dead headline, you are in no position to ask anything, let alone talk threatening with guidelines with which you are totally in breach. Gun Powder Ma 23:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you read the article Großdeutschland - this is exactly what your scheme is saying Johnbod 00:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you read from when the source actually is, a reference which had been actually on the page all along. Then you may want to go back, edit your brain dead headline, edit your brain dead reference to 1942, or I suggest you may want to edit other article where you are not so demonstrably in conflict with NPOV guidelines. Gun Powder Ma 00:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

The names of the cities need to be put into the usual English form, and given links. An NPOV solution needs to be found for the heading "Germany" - includes Prague, Wrocław, Vienna etc. I have done a few. Where/what is "Kronstadt" - it's not the one in Russia (founded on swamp by Peter the great in 1710)? Johnbod 16:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

To be exact "Germany" depends on the time and the city, see Johannes Gutenberg which has

'''Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg''' (c. [[1398]] – [[February 3]], [[1468]]) was a [[Holy Roman Empire|German]] goldsmithDGG 00:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course it does, but Prague, Pilsen etc were never in it. And if we are taking that tack, what is Belgium doing there? As you know, there are policies, admittedly complicated ones, for all this, which Ma has chosen to ignore completely.

Johnbod 00:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

are you sure about Prague? From [[Prague], it was part in the 13th c. and the 16th. But the relevant date was 1478, when things were a little confused there. :) Even when the EB was printed, there was no HRE. It may actually have been in the HRE in 1478, since--unlike the WP, that article was designed for scholars.DGG
It was always in the kingdom of Bohemia, and the Kings were the HRE's at various points (and later the Austrian Emperors), but that don't make it German, any more than the many Italian etc bits of the HRE. Try suggesting at the Prague article it used to be in Germany! Johnbod 01:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Depends on your definition of "German". Try suggesting at the Prague university article that the university was not the first German university founded! Gun Powder Ma 01:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
But not the first university in Germany! It's not defining German, but defining Germany, the term used. I have been suggesting all along we move from "Germany" to some use of "German". Johnbod 01:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Won't work. First, because we do not know of the vast majority of instances listed in what language they printed. In what language e.g. did they first print in 1479 in Toulouse? French, Provencal, Occidental, Spanish, Basque or Catalan? Second, because the term 'language' is itself vague. Did the American settlers already print in American or British English? Did the early printers in the Netherlands print in German or already in Dutch (= D[e]ut[s]ch)? When did Dutch, a German dialect, become a language of its own? Is it even a language of its own (the spectrum of Chinese dialects for example is much broader, still they are all called Chinese)? Who can answer these questions with authority? Gun Powder Ma 11:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Will work better than using Germany. I only suggest departing from states for German, Greek, and Hebrew, so Toulouse is not an issue. Dutch is normally regarded as a separate language from earlier than this (in discussions of manuscripts). American English is not regarded as a different language even now (what is Wikipedia in?). Latin, which you don't mention, is actually much more of a problem, but I think one has to assume a mix of Latin & vernacular books for all German printers, which from my limited knowledge would be correct in the majority of cases. No scheme will be perfect; I think we all recognise this Johnbod 16:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I have found "Kronstadt", listed under Hungary; it is now Braşov in Transylvania, Romania. One of the German centres there. Johnbod 16:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Modest proposal: How about Germany, Austria, and German printers in Central Europe - evades most of these problems

Johnbod 16:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Laugingen does not appear as a place in either German Wiki or Google that I can see, except as a Surname & in medieval contexts. Seems connected to Augsburg - maybe is now a suburb/town district or uses a different spelling? Anyone know?

Btw "Ofen" is strictly Buda not Budapest (both sides of the river), but I think Budapest is ok to use. Johnbod 16:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Locations

There is no easy way to categorize all the places where printing was done, especially in central Europe. My impression was that Meyer ordered the places also according to the language the printers used (taking Latin aside). Therefore, Prague belongs to Germany (apart from being a part of the Old Reich then), as the printers (next to the university, the imperial chancellery) used the German language. Then again, there were sooner or later Czech language printers. All I want to suggest for the moment is do not change the category of te places before we have found here a common solution. It just becomes a mess of what has been until now an orderly structure. Regards Gun Powder Ma 00:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That was, you may recall through the red mist, my original suggestion above (to reorder by language). Plus it avoids you saying Florence is in Greece. And I wonder if those Rabbis in ?Lisbon were printing in Portuguese or Hebrew? Johnbod 00:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but next time try putting your facts in a different passage from your diatribe. Listing by language would destroy the 'spread of printing' character IMO pretty much. Also, it is far from being an unambigous criteria. I suggest we replace 'Germany' with 'Holy Roman Empire' which would solve most problems. To do much more is trying to impose technocracy on history, which won't work. We can also add another column for 'language', but actually I would prefer 'comments' here. And "Florence" is anyway a later insertion not done by Meyer. Gun Powder Ma 01:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Well I am am sympathetic to that approach, but really I think the only way is either go "German-language printers" or similar , "Greek-language" "Hebrew"(if so),& leave the rest by country, or use modern territories, which I agree would not be best. All sorts of places (eg Belgium & chunks of Italy) were in the HRE. Johnbod 01:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] names in general

This is a page intended for the non-specialist as well as the specialist, and i think it is better to use the modern names, and the modern countries--otherwise it needs an index. (unsigned comment by DGG)

Totally unhistorical. Would also destroy the 'spread of printing' character pretty much. Gun Powder Ma 01:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, it has the advantage that we need not argue over the history here & can concentrate of verifying the dates and the names in that listing--since the source is a little old. How about (now in ...) or (in what is now...) or see also ... Does anyone here really thinks able to mediate between Eastern European borders? DGG 05:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
We would stop arguing about countries and borders and start arguing about languages and dialects. Where again would you draw the exact line between Dutch as a German dialect and Dutch as a separate language? Gun Powder Ma 18:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
You are the one who has been insisting on countries. The Dutch/German divide is normally taken pretty much along the current borders, which (near enough) were the borders of Burgundy at the time. Obviously including Belgium in the list is anomalous, but I don't have very strong views on that.

Johnbod 19:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Question: What historical explanatory power could have an entry which says that in 1475 in "Breslau, Poland", a printing press was established? Don't people then automatically assume that

  • Breslau was a Polish city - which it was not.
  • They printed there in Polish - which they did not.
  • That the printing press reached Poland in 1474 - which it did not. Don't they? Gun Powder Ma 20:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Hence I repeat my proposal of Dec 16th above: How about Germany, Austria, and German printers in Central Europe - evades most of these problems?
- You must know it can't stay as Germany, which wasn't true even then Johnbod 20:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Three of the many counter-points coming to my mind:

  • Lack of consistence: Why not "Germany", but "Spain" which was constituted as late as 1707?
  • Lack of unambigousness: "German printers" were also active in many other parts of Europe, especially in Italy. Do you think the readers will understand your differentiation between them and their colleagues in "Central Europe"?
  • Lack of methodology: The concept of language is actually no less problematic than the concept of nationhood or national borders. Was Dutch then a separate language or just another German dialect? Did they print in Castellano or in Spanish? Do we have to say they printed in Middle-English or in English?

I would still favour a solution around the term "Holy Roman Empire" which is the closest to history. Gun Powder Ma 21:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

First, you still have not adressed the point Under "German printers" you would also have to place much of the early Italian printers

wait a minute, we are not talking about printers who come from Germany, we are talking about printing done in Germany (or in Italy). There are two things easy to tell--one is the language of the book, the other is the imprint. !
and how about (now in Germany), or Czech Republic or whatever? This discussion is getting absurd. I could easily take it to another degree of absurdity, by discussing your interpretation that Spain wasn't a nation until 1707. We are just interested in identifying. DGG 02:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Whom are you addressing and what are you actually arguing for? It is clear that a category "German printers in xyz" would be an anomaly in a list otherwise ordered by region. If we set that precedence, we would be obliged to go all the way and remodel for example also printing in America as "Spanish printers in America", since there wasn't then neither a state of Mexico, nor Argentine nor Peru. Nor were there India, Turkey and many other states. Either we expect from the readers some transmission logic or this article will fail due to being overstilized by its editors. Regards Gun Powder Ma 15:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would we be "obliged" to do this? There are many other anomalies in the list - Belgium (modern), Scotland (historical)- but these are not confusing in the same way as Germany. The current list includes many places (Prague, Brno, Trento) that have never been within any generally-accepted geographical concept of Germany (apart from you-know-what), and others that were not then in Germany, are not now in Germany, but were in Germany for periods in between. You have not seriously addressed my solution that you have reverted and you are the only person who has objected to it in the three weeks since I proposed it here. I will therefore put it back - please do not start edit-warring over it. Johnbod 16:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Obliged" in order to keep it consistent. Since you did not address any of my numerous objections in any meaningful way, I fail to see how you went ahead with editing the article nonetheless. The argument that over the last three weels nobody objected to your proposal hardly counts considering that some people actually away from the Internet over Christmas and New Year...Gun Powder Ma 02:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have described above how the current version is inconsistent in many ways, & also manages to find the worst of all possible solutions re "Germany". You choose not to deal with my arguments at all, but to leave blatently incorrect content under what is supposed to be the modern definition of Germany. I am patient. Johnbod 02:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
And you have continually failed to describe why your version should be less inconsistent, when you pick out one "anomaly" and leave all the others in peace. By which criteria anyway? So far your 'solution' is a classical case of 'out of the frying pan into the fire' and I don not like the double standard involved. Actually, you know what, we are not far from one another. I propose to make one category "HRE" and several subcategories like "Germany", "Austria" if you like, "Bohemia", "Belgium", "Holland", "Switzerland", perhaps also (northern) "Italy". Gun Powder Ma 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that would be an improvement on the current situation, although the Netherlands would also need to be included, and some places (Wroclaw I think, the Czech ones, maybe others) would still be a problem, as not in the HRE then, nor of course now. You would also be mixing German & Dutch language printing, which would be a pity - plus it would destroy the simple chronological aspect of the current "Germany" category. It still seems clearly less satisfactory than my solution & I don't understand why you prefer it. I think it's time to let some others comment on the two suggestions. Johnbod 03:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] stranded comments re language

Language would be a separate and different list--consider Italy,where there was the first printing for Italian, I think Greek, and certainly Hebrew. (as for Lisbon, I need to check).DGG 01:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
First printing in Hebrew is not currently listed, and should be. Do you have the info? Can go in the comments box, like music Johnbod 17:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I have several conflicting sources. I'll need to check.DGG 03:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] as for how to arrange it

there just is no one way. a straightforward one by dates is also useful. But let s get this one finished by city and by language, & then several arrangements can be done. This list is long, but not all that long compared to others. There is a guideline for names of cities, at WP:PLACESDGG 06:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we just open up a new article, this time by the criteria 'language'? Gun Powder Ma 23:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
that would not solve the remaining issues on this one, and we all agree we don't know enough about what languages all these printers actually used. Do you fancy researching this? Johnbod 23:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
What I know is that there are several articles at WP concerning the List of tallest buildings and structures in the world#See also, each according to its own criteria. Perhaps we should just leave the idea of making a list according to the right and definite criteria, and instead give room to different ways of representing the spread of printing. This would also be in the spirit of WP. Gun Powder Ma 23:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
History of the book contains a list of first printed books, mostly by language. Man vyi 09:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey

The article states that: "Due to religious qualms, Sultan Bayezid II. prohibited printing in Arabic script in the Ottoman empire in 1483 on death penalty, but underground printing was done by Jews as well as the Greek and Armenian communities".

In fact, the Jewish ans Christian printers were not operating in "underground". They were given permission to print, as long as they don't print Arabic script. (which at the time was also used for Turkish). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.72.45.187 (talk) 16:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Provide a source and then go agead with an edit. Regards Gun Powder Ma 16:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

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