Talk:Spells of Dungeons & Dragons

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This article was nominated for deletion on 111105. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Contents


[edit] Votes for Deletion archived debate

The below discussion is a deletion debate over several articles on individual D&D spells moved from VfD

Hmmm ... do we really want/need an article about each and every Dungeons and Dragons spell? Elf-friend 01:19, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • No. Delete--Samuel J. Howard 02:17, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • No we don't. Delete all of them. -- Netoholic 02:22, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    1. Displacer beast
    2. Magic missile
    3. Magic missle
    4. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=68.57.255.173
    • >.< ... shakes head in despair. Elf-friend 02:29, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • I agree with deleting all, by the way. --Elf-friend 03:34, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Oh man...delete them all, we would, my precious! (conflation of D&D and JRRT just to anger people who would care!)--Samuel J. Howard 03:00, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Non-encyclopedic minutia. SWAdair | Talk 03:01, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Finally, we can end this all this D&D psuedo-information. Delete all. Also, may I suggest adding Ray of Frost too? It incorrectly survived and was merged into a 1 item "list" when it was on vfd [1]. Eggy O 03:08, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all, including Ray of Frost. Subtrivial pseudoinformation. Wile E. Heresiarch 03:29, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all. The titles of the spells and monsters are such that redirects will inevitably trip over needed or existing articles (e.g. Fireball). The people doing the searching already know what they are, and we are not Gygax Central. Geogre 03:46, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all, including the non-article that Ray of Frost redirects to. -Sean Curtin 06:50, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Qualified all - campaign settings and major characters are probably notable enough to keep, but individual creatures, spells, magic items and modules aren't. And this from a roleplayer. ;) -- Necrothesp 12:55, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all. DJ Clayworth 14:13, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete this; delete all specific spells, unless they are also the names of attested mythological subjects like evil eye or tarasque. Smerdis of Tlön 14:42, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all. But let's make this just the start of cleaning up minor fiction articles in general--there's anime, manga, Star Trek, Star Wars, JRR, computer game, etc. articles on par with these, which could be either deleted, or condensed into summary articles--EG Genealogy of Peregrin Took, instead of break-out articles for each Hobbit that just happens to get mentioned as a relative. Niteowlneils 15:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Okay, but probably needs its own project page, perhaps Wikipedia:Inclusion of, erm..., and if it has its own wikiproject, it ought to get votes from users there, it might be best to systematically go through all the Pokemon articles for example. Dunc_Harris|☺ 17:26, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete all - people, if you want to write a game guide, Wikibooks is sitting there being an appropriate venue. -- Cyrius|✎ 23:58, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete Bulls strength and Ray of Frost. Keep Displacer beast (2310 Google results). Keep Magic missile (143,000 results) as part of a larger article. On what basis do you consider an article "minor"? I don't have a problem with an article if it is written like an encyclopaedia article (see Wikipedia:Check your fiction). ··gracefool |☺ 05:27, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete or merge the less-known spells (preferably merge), but the archetypal ones á la Magic Missile or Fireball (both of which I will start tampering on as soon as I get out of bed) are very well known and certainly warrant their own articles. -- Kizor 22:52, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Okay, I've now merged Bulls strength, Magic missile and Cantrip to Spells of Dungeons & Dragons. ··gracefool |☺ 01:56, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Great. When can we start on monsters of Dungeons & Dragons (or creatures of Dungeons & Dragons)? -- Netoholic @ 02:28, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
      • As soon as possible. (: +sj+ 07:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
        1. That's a whole lot more work.
        2. Why? I can understand merging when there are a relatively small number of articles, most of which are stubs, but many Dungeons & Dragons creatures (not to mention characters of Dungeons & Dragons) have a decent amount of text. Why is a single huge page so much better than a number of separate pages, especially when those pages are likely to expand?
          • Please do merge all of the small pages. the longer pages usually have more than just "D&D" information.
            • Please wait until the new policy is decided - meanwhile are they really hurting anyone? ··gracefool |☺ 12:47, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
        3. Redirects to headers/sections don't work.
          • they work for me... +sj+]
            • Huh? You can follow a link to a section, but a redirect page will always send you to the top of a page ··gracefool |☺ 12:47, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
··gracefool |☺ 03:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

[edit] Overhaul Planned

A change I plan to make is detailed below. If this page is deleted, then fine, but there are dramatic problems with this page, and they should be fixed.

  • Re-write all language that is 3rd edition-specific. This is an article about the elements of D&D that have transcended D&D and influenced the genre of tabletop RPGs, not "spells and mechanics we like in 3rd edition"
  • Par down the list of spells to just those which have either
    • become iconic elements of fantasy role playing (Magic Missile comes to mind)
    • or have directly influenced the development of other games (e.g. some games such as Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved specifically set out to create a magic system that does not rely on the existance of a catch-all "Wish" spell)
  • Remove the schools of magic. Mention that they exist would be fine, but listing them and their features is too much detail.

I will re-word this section as appropriate when I get around to the changes.

-Harmil 20:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article ought to be renamed to Magic of Dungeons & Dragons. That way, the schools (an intrinsic part of the magic system) wouldn't need to be removed, and users wouldn't be quite so tempted to add lists of spells that aren't inherently notable. It would also make this page a good target for merging articles about minor D&D magical items. Discussion of the differences in a spell or effect's implementation between editions is probably germane to the topic, but otherwise I do agree with removing 3E-specific references. -Sean Curtin 23:18, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
I see your point, but I disagree. This wasn't about the magic system in general (and I don't think an article just about the D&D magic system would be terribly useful), but about specific spells that ended up getting referenced frequently. Please correct me if I'm missing some element of the history, here.... -Harmil 20:33, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've removed all 3E-specific stuff, except for a few spells that weren't around pre 3E. I don't think the details on schools is too detailed, and the article isn't so big that it needs separating.
I'm okay with removing spells of small importance, and adding more important ones. ··gracefool |☺ 12:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, cearly you're more ambitious than I today :) Thanks for the hand, and I'll poke around sometime after my next game (which I need to spend time preparing for) and see what's left to be done. Thanks! -Harmil 12:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Sean Curtin. "Magic of Dungeons and Dragons" would be a better article, since the magic items are just as important as the spells and the two often interact. I recommend that the article be moved to "Magic of Dungeons and Dragons", and expanded to cover magic items as well as describing the origins and development of the magic in the game. --Jonathan Drain 22:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[2]
I disagree, since not all spells in D&D are 'magic', and in the strictest sense, only Arcane spells are magic (originally granted by godess of magic, Mistra if I remember the name correctly.) --Arny 20:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
That distinction is not supported by the text in the Player's Handbook, as far as I know. All spells are magic, whether divine or arcane. You'll note that dispel magic works just fine against divine effects. The primary effects that are not considered magical are those of psionics -- but those aren't called spells, either, so they wouldn't fall under either considered title. Powers 22:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Debates over the name aside, I have now completed my intended re-write. There is more work that could be done, but the page is now less of a collection of D&D trivia and more of a review of what elements of the spells of D&D affected the role playing game world. I'd still like to add some good examples of D&D elements cropping up in other games (spell-related, that is). Also, someone added Incarnum, which is fine, but a detailed overview of that should go in its own article. I parred down what was here, and also removed the name (you don't sign Wikipedia articles, sorry). -Harmil 13:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done. I'm not sure the Incarnum section belongs here at all, but you did a good job rewriting it at any rate. I added fireball back in; it's at least as iconic a spell as scrying. =) One could also make an argument for searing light on the divine list (it seems a bit short right now), but it's a weaker case. Powers 14:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I took out fireball?! Good catch! -Harmil 14:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spell list and recent additions

Mailer diablo recently added the spell "Astral trail" to the list. I can't find a reference to it anywhere. Am I wrong in thinking the spells on this list should be as iconic as possible?

Also, when we do add new spells, let's try to add them in alphabetical order, shall we? Powers 14:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skull Trap

I see no reason for Skull Trap to be listed here (and especially not in its own section, "Necromancy spells"). This isn't supposed to be a comprehensive list of D&D spells, and I don't want to set a bad precedent here. Powers 18:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Then nominate the redirect for deletion. Once that's gone, I have no objection to removing the spell. --Hetar 20:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

There seems to be some overlap between this article and Magic (Dungeons & Dragons). Perhaps these articles should be merged? --GentlemanGhost 17:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


I agree, they probably shoild be merged --Wootking Tom 18:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files
  • Mere collections of public domain or other source material
Merged or just deleted. shadzar|Talk|contribs 16:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

How about having an article for each general grouping of spells, like a group for spells dealing with fire? That way, we don't have a bunch of unneeded articles, while also having information on the various spells in D&D. The only thing to watch out for is making sure that we don't replace the Spell Compendium or other such volumes. --Luigifan 21:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I say that both articles Spell and Magic should be deleted. WP:NOT states that Wikipedia should no be used to reproduce books or media files such as the SRD. Magic and spells in the D&D game can be explained in the game mechanics in general. Their is not need for a list of either. shadzar|Talk|contribs 16:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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