Talk:Spatha

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Spatha article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] More information

the spatha is a straight slashing sword used by the roman armies and miletery the sword was over three feet long.


The Spatha was originally used by Iberian-Celtic horsemen. The Romans adapted it after fighting their Iberian Wars.

That would be after the 70s BC (Quintus Sertorius); do you have a reference for that? here somebody claims that it was Gallic, and somebody else that it was Germanic. dab (ᛏ) 13:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
from here it would seem you are confusing the Spatha with the Gladius which was adopted in the 3rd century. dab (ᛏ) 13:37, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Typology

Should we consider the spatha and all of it's successor's to be of Germanic rather than roman origin? A similar blade typology can be seen in bronze age longswords from the netherlands(the swords are from just before the netherlands came under the germanic sphere of influence) and as far as i am aware the spatha was adopted after conflict with the Germmanic tribes. http://www.angelfire.com/me/ik/pics1.html

maybe Viking sword should become a separate article, and possibly also Migration Age sword/Germanic sword. Plus, we'll need Celtic sword to bridge Bronze Age sword with this article [1]. dab (ᛏ) 13:51, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

["this is all incorrect, the transition in the later roman empire from gladius to spatha was much more to do with the fact that many of the Roman legionaries at that point had been recruited from the roman provinces and as such were far more accustomed to a longer blade like a spatha. There is no evidence to show that there was a consistent difference of construction between gladii and spatha, and there are at least a few examples of pattern welded Gladii"]
I deleted this paragraph as it was clearly a discussion page issue, rather than something that should go in an article. I am, however, not in a position to determine the correctness of the comment. 206.253.219.50 23:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Nathen

Actually, we have little to no idea what the underlying reason was for the transition from shorter to longer swords amongst the Roman infantry; it's all pretty much guesswork and theories. It remains a very active debating point. The general consesus, though, seems to be that it was gradual and not uniform. Indeed, there is increasing archaeological evidence to suggest the Gladius Hispanicus had quite a long blade when first assimilated in the late Republic, perhaps 27" or so. Thanks for removing the paragraph --M.J.Stanham 00:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how Vendel, Migrationary and Norse blades are considered spatha. They are certainly somewhat derivative, but the blades are fullered, the fittings advance from wood to metal and changed shape. Also, "brazil nut pommels" are later than Viking era.
Add to that, all the Viking era swords I've handled were about 26" of blade and 6" of hilt section, for 32", not 37". I'd sure like to see one of these fencing length Viking swords everyone alludes to.
Also, pattern-welded gladii date back before BCE, per examples in "Swords and Hilt Weapons" ISBN1566192498 --Michael Z. Williamson

Well, Spatha vary in length and 26" of Blade would probably still qualify. My understanding is that Viking Sword Blades could go up to about 30", but were rarely longer. A rough guide to this sort of thing is 12" or less = Dagger / Knife, 12-24" = 'Short Sword' / Gladius / Semi Spatha / etc.. / 24-36" = 'Long Sword' / Spatha / Medieval Sword / etc... Such a system breaks down fairly easily, but it's just a rough guide. I think it's inspired by the Japanese categorising of blades by 'Shaku'. Classifying swords is very difficult, because the terminology is inadequette and means different thing in different times and places to different people. --M.J.Stanham 15:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links section needs a thorough cleanup

Kindly evaluate and rid the section of double links, dead links and possible SPAM...--The world salutes the Rising Star...Try to be One 13:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin and use of spatha

Sorry I'm going to have to make some radical changes here. The article does not quote any sources at all and is obviously based on the hoaky Internet articles that all rely on each other and don't quote any sources either. There's a bunch of totally wrong assumptions associated with them. The spatha never was a specifically cavalry weapon. There is no evidence of that. The statement seems to be based on the idea that Roman cavalry were auxilliaries and that auxilliaries were cavalry. Not so. Every legion had alae of native cavalry in it from earliest times. Moreover most auxilliaries were infantry not cavalry. The Germanics had some cavalry that served in the Roman army but there is no evidence that they carried the spatha while the infantry did not. All this is pure speculation and supposition, and it's wrong. And there is all that stuff about the spatha being a slashing sword. There's no evidence of that either. Like the gladius it could be used for cut or thrust. What do you think the long point was for? And then there are the various statements trying to connect Celtic swords and broadswords and all kinds of other swords to the spatha in some sort of line of development. But the sword picture is very complex. Like gladius it came to mean any sort of sword whether two-handed or dagger. I'm going to try to summarize the essence of what there is so bear with me. OR, come up with some evidence to substantiate what looks to me like pure duplicated hoak. Those sword salesmen will tell you anything. Want to buy a genuine cavalry spatha for 400 dollars?Dave 05:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking forward to it, Dave. You did a great job with the Gladius article. I still have a couple of nits to pick, but it really is a hundred times improved. I will try to find some time to help out where I may.--M.J.Stanham 13:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Viking swords

So I actually didn't get it, will these two pages (Spatha and Viking sword) be separated? I wanted to suggest this topic for discussion, but I've seen that the word "Viking" has already been used here, but unfortunately only used, and I haven't seen any signs of a decision.

These swords are not absolutely and totally different, but they are different enough that Viking sword to deserve it's own article and page in an encyclopedia. Siliconov 15:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it is intended that such will be the eventual outcome. It depends how this page progresses. There is certainly a lot more to be said about the swords that developed from the Roman Spatha. Whether it is best to refer to them as Viking or Viking Age Swords is another matter. The Arming sword / Knightly sword Article presents a cut off point. --M.J.Stanham 19:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
indeed, the pages will be separate eventually, but I would prefer writing the material first and separating later, otherwise we'll just have a content-less stub sitting around for the next year or so. As soon as somebody is willing to write a full article on the Viking sword, be my guest and separate it! dab (𒁳) 19:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length

Some sources measure blade length; other sources measure total length. When discussing sword length, it is very important (1) to specify whether you mean blade length or total length and (2) not to read others' references to the one as references to the other. It is sometimes helpful to provide both figures, though many more finds have broken hilts than broken blades. Jacob Haller 23:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The article as written does not explain which length it refers to. The figures are somewhat too narrow for total length and far too high for blade length. Starting with Newstead, (Pit 14) is 77 cm total and 62 cm blade, (Pit 16) is 76 total, 63 blade. Kostolna (Grave 37) is 74 cm total. One of the spathae from Nawa is 71 cm total. Others push the upper bounds. Rottweil is 102 cm total, 87 cm blade. Jacob Haller 23:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/p/a/Talk%7ESpatha_861c.html"