Talk:Spanglish

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spain Portal This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details.

	Spanglish falls under the scope of WikiProject Mexican-Americans, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexican-Americans on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Mexican-Americans as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Mexican-Americans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	Puerto Rico Portal Spanglish is part of WikiProject Puerto Rico, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the people, history, language, and culture of Puerto Rico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, help with the tasks listed below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Please do not substitute this template.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
WikiProject Puerto Rico To-do: edit Article requests: Art of Puerto Rico, Lourdes Chacón, Dagmar, Law of Puerto Rico, Central Fajardo, Flora of Puerto Rico more Cleanup: Mona, Puerto Rico, Vieques, Puerto Rico, Ponce Massacre, Morovis, Puerto Rico, Bayamón, Puerto Rico, Caguas, Puerto Rico Verify: Dominican immigration to Puerto Rico Wikify: Ceiba, Puerto Rico Expand: Public welfare in Puerto Rico, Culture of Puerto Rico, Demographics of Puerto Rico, Geology of Puerto Rico, Transportation in Puerto Rico, Education in Puerto Rico, Communications in Puerto Rico, Public housing in Puerto Rico more Merge: Puertorrican people –> Puerto Rican Category Sorting: Category:Puerto Rican politicians, Category:History of Puerto Rico Images needed: Roberto Clemente

Contents 1 major rewrite 2 The deleted material 3 overlinking 4 etymologies 5 General problem with initial link 6 meaning of aplicación 7 Bizarre claim 8 "ya lo sé" 9 Embarazada 10 Transportación 11 Ilán Stavans 12 External Links 13 Spanglish Babel Labels 14 Tex-Mex as a local/regional synonym 15 Pochos 16 Todo un suceso 17 Comments by 193.144.127.248 18 USA's laws 19 Culear? 20 mombuey, bilto 21 Disputed ideas about Spanglish

[edit] major rewrite

I just did a pretty major rewriting of this page, with a number of corrections:

1. Spanglish is not a pidgin. Trust me, I've studied pidgins and creoles.
2. I make clear in my rewrite that "Spanglish" is not a technical term of linguistics. It is a popular way to refer to a bunch of different stuff that linguists classify differently.
3. I added better stereotypical examples of expressions people refer to as "Spanglish", classified by what is going on in them.
4. Most of the examples were really idiosyncratic (instead of stereotypical, as the one's I've picked), and some were just plain wrong; e.g. "carro" is not an English borrowing at all.
5. The material about Spanish influence on American English is not too bad, but it just doesn't belong on this entry. The term "Spanglish" is only really used to refer to the English-influenced speech of Spanish speakers.

-- 171.64.42.82 15:55, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Carro may come from the Latin, but can we not safely assume the word car also has a Latin root, ie carriage also comes from carrus, SqueakBox 00:25, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Can you tell me how many people speak spanglish and when it was first used??? If you can, please post it on this page.

[edit] The deleted material

I'm not going to argue with most of the above, but the following material is certainly encyclopedic and was deleted from the article; I have no problem moving it somewhere more appropriate (suggestions welcomed), but I think deletion was inappropriate.

Typical examples of Spanish words that have thoroughly passed into American English include:

• "Mesa", literally meaning table, referring to a flat-topped hillock
• "Patio"
• "Veranda"
• "Garbanzo"

Other Spanish words have passed into English, slightly modified, as slang words that are almost universally understood. For example:

• "Vaquero" (cowboy), respelled as "buckaroo".
• "Juzgado" (literally "judged"), respelled as "hoosegow" (jail).

Still other Spanish words are still considered exotic when used in an English-language context, but are almost universally understood:

• Many foods, such as "taco", "burrito", "quesadilla" and true Spanglish hybrids like "a hot chile".
• Certain common polite expressions, such as "¿Qué pasa?", "Gracias", "Adiós", "Por favor".
• Many other words, including "amigo", "compadre", "cerveza", "agua", and (with slightly less universality) "gordo" (used like "fatso"), "sierra" (mountain range).

In addition, the following was deleted for reasons that escape me. All of these strike me as perfectly good examples of Spanglish. Why were these removed?

• "Loisaida", a largely Puerto Rican neigborhood in Manhattan, whose name derives from "Lower East Side".
• A fully conjugated verb "sharpeniar" (to sharpen; note that the "sh" sound normally does not exist in Spanish).
• "Postostes" ("breakfast cereal") deriving from the brand name "Post Toasties"
• "Regando diches" (digging ditches).
• "No Hangear" (no loitering).

Jmabel 05:40, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I didn't just "remove" them, I replaced them with more a list of more stereotypical, well-known examples, organized by the way English influences enters Spanish. Those examples are simply loanwords, and not particularly well-known ones. I judged that a shorter list divided by kinds of influence was better.

171.64.42.82 06:29, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Loisaida" not well known? Even English-speakers have started using it! It's become an official alternate name for Avenue B. -- Jmabel 07:06, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

My comments as a native Southern Californian (L.A./Orange County):

"hoosegow" - Never heard of the word. People just say "jail". :) Perhaps a regional thing?

"Loisaida" - Never heard of it. Of course, it's a regional thing, and I'm in SoCal. But because it IS regional, probably MOST native English speakers have never heard of it, so it's probably not the best example for Spanglish.

"sharpeniar" - Never heard of it.

"Postostes" - Never heard of it.

"Regando diches" - Never heard of it.

"No Hangear" - Never heard of it.

Good call on removing those words. This whole idea of what, exactly constitutes Spanglish, anyway, is interesting. I always understood Spanglish to be an English word that's been modified by the speaker so as to pass it off as a Spanish word, when it really isn't. An example would be saying "Givar el dinero to me," instead of "Darme el dinero." (Sorry, it's been a long time since I took Spanish; "dar" is the verb meaning "to give," correct?) BeakerK44 02:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's probably "dame los dineros", imperative tense, pluralis... But I am not an expert of spanish, particularly not american one...

A bit too late, but... "dame el dinero". Dinero is just as uncountable as money so it's in singular. Sabbut 21:53, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Hoosegow" goes clear back to the 19th century. Over 7000 Google hits, plus about another 700 for "hoosgow" with the same meaning. -- Jmabel|Talk 18:47, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

• This page needs to be deleted. I have been told in no uncertain

that obscure languages are not welcome at Wikipedia. -Ms. Greenberg 22:46, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • Ah, there is nothing like a troll. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:39, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Sharpeniar is even used at spanish --AleG2 21:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] overlinking

• Is it really useful to link "Linguists" to "List of linguists"? The link doesn't take you to the particular linguists being referred to, just a generic list of linguists. I think this sort of link is a liability. I won't unilaterally remove it, but does someone else agree? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:39, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] etymologies

Have deleted this as hopelessly confused. All it really says is that Spanish isn't a mirror of English, which we know. Words like car and carro clearly have the same Latin root, and indeed were content from this paragraph to return to the article it would need to be in the context of the shared Latin root, which effects 33% of words, some subtle like tapar and tap, SqueakBox 00:37, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

A list of common mistakes with etymologies:

1. The words "parcar" and "parquero" are a mishearing of the perfectly accepted Spanish words aparcar and parqueadero, and do not reflect English influence. When these last two are pronounced quickly they may sound different, like for instance, "parquea'ro", and may seem similar to the English word "to park".

   But initially aparcar or parquear were Anglicisms in Spanish. The neologism estacionar has had limited success. --Error 22:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

2. Carro comes from the Latin word "carrus", as does the English word "car". Carro does not come from car.

   But carro is mainly "carriage". It means "car" in Mexico. In Spain, it coche (originally, a particular kind of carriage, coach, from Hungarian kocsi). Could it be an influence of American English? --Error 22:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-You're wrong. Carro is a word used in all Latin America, not just in Mexico.

The word for "car" in Portugal is carro, cognate to the Latin American word. I don't think anybody seriously suggests that the Portuguese got their word for car as a borrowing; it's clearly an independent development, and as such, it demonstrates that it's possible for Latin American Spanish carro to also be that. -- 209.204.188.184 29 June 2005 06:07 (UTC)

1. Bus is a short word for "autobús", although it doesn't matter from if it is from direct English influence. It is now a common word in various Spanish speaking countries.
2. Aseguranza is a correct term in the Spanish language (used only in Salamanca, Spain). It originally means "seguridad" (that is "security") and, as it is a word in disuse, speakers have changed 'naturally' its meaning to that of "insurance". "Seguridad" is a similar word to "seguro". There is no English influence whatsoever in this change.

   Could it be an influence of French assurance? --Error 22:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

   The word aseguranza is common among immigrant Mexican workers in Northern California, and in that case, it's certainly not French influence, nor influence from the Spanish of Salamanca. The word for insurance in Mexico is seguro; try Googling for "México seguros" and you'll see it clearly (e.g., there's a link to a yellow pages section in the first page of results). If you google for "México aseguranza," the hits you get are in the USA. What's happening is that aseguranza is calqued from English insurance. It's morphological analogy: sure : seguro; insure : asegurar; insurance : aseguranza. -- 209.204.188.184 29 June 2005 06:07 (UTC)

[edit] General problem with initial link

I really think there is an initial problem with the link. In fact the page comes for "Anglicisms in Spanish" and "Spanglish" is just part of the Anglicisms in Spanish. Spanglish happens in bilingual cultures, like the USA or like Gibraltar, and is the extreme of the phenomenon. When I followed the link I certainly didn't expect to have just an article about 'Spanglish'. We should perhaps create two different links: one to a general introduction to Anglicisms in Spanish, basically applied to Spanish speaking countries, and a different link to Spanglish as a special issue. In addition, it is quite obvious that the inluence of English on the Spanish in Spain, for example, will be quite different to that of Hispannic communities in the US or to that of Spanish in Venezuela or Peru... I think this article shows a partial view of a very complex topic.

(never got signed)

In the short Spanglish conversation carro should be changed to troca or troque meaning truck in American English.

A short Spanglish conversation:

   * Anita: "Hola, good morning, como estás?"
   * Mark: "Good, y tú?"
   * Anita: "Todo bien. Pero tuve problemas parqueando mi carro this morning."

(anon 4 Aug 2005)

[edit] meaning of aplicación

Hi guys I have a problem with this sentence,

In Spanish aplicación means "use of" or "appliance";

I'm no expert but aplicación doesn't mean "appliance" in my book, even “use of” is questionable. I’ll have to admit that my Spanish to English dictionary says it means appliance, but when in doubt go to the source.

I checked rae.es which as many know is the highest authority in the Spanish language and they have about 5 meanings: roughly

1: the act of applying (applying paint to a wall) (apply knowledge)

(NOT applying for a JOB)

2: diligence (application to her work, studies) 3: similar to 1, again an application of wallpaper on a wall. Etc. 4: Computer program (application) 5: a math operation.

That’s it, the main idea of the article is a the incorrect use of aplicación as a job application.

Appliance as in electrical appliance has nothing to do with aplicación

[edit] Bizarre claim

"'Spanglish' can also refer to the typical errors made by native speakers of one language learning the other" was reworded as "One of the biggest misconceptions about Spanglish is that it can also refer to the typical errors made by native speakers of one language learning the other. However, Linguists have proved otherwise."

How can linguists prove that the word Spanglish cannot also refer to this phenomenon? Barring a citation, I intend to revert. - Jmabel | Talk 03:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "ya lo sé"

Really "ya lo sé"? I'm not native, but it would surprise me if that's the most likely Spanish wording; I'd just expect "lo sé" or "yo lo sé". Would a native Spanish speaker please chime in? - Jmabel | Talk 06:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a native but can confirm that ya lo sé is definitely correct. It's a very common conversational phrase that shouldn't be analysed word by word. Google has about 600,000 hits for that phrase. Flapdragon 10:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It's always interesting to discover that my Spanish has holes even in such common things. - Jmabel | Talk 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

"I (already) know" is the word-by-word translation. Isn't that close to what it means? -Iopq 02:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Clearly. I'm just remarking that if I were speaking, I wouln't have thought you use the "ya" here. - Jmabel | Talk 19:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

In English you would omit it because already is a longer word ;) -Iopq 04:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Ya lo sé" is correct--Asterion 04:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I know it's late to say this, but actually the word that was ommited was "I"(yo). "Ya" could mean "already". So the complete phrase would be "(Yo) ya lo sé", though "yo" is redundant(because the verb is conjugated in first person: "lo se").

It's correct and fairly common.(189.157.56.248 09:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC))

Not to mention that English speakers do frequently say "I know already" — it only seems strange in Spanish because of the word order and shortness (and hence convenience) of the phrase. --Lenoxus 01:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embarazada

Contributors to this article may be interested to know that the article on Embarazada (Spanish for "pregnant", a false friend cognate with "embarrassed") is currently up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Embarazada. Flapdragon 10:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transportación

Yes, it is a "pseudoanglicism"[1]. The term is accepted by DRAE but it has been in disuse for two or three centuries. My point was that it did not become common again till around 20-30 years ago, due to contact with English. --Asterion 17:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ilán Stavans

The article used to say that "Ilán Stavans argues in Spanglish: The Making of a New American Language that it is rapidly becoming a language in several U.S. regions." Now, all mention of Stavans is gone except an external link, and there is a strong claim that Spanglish is not even a dialect (I would say it is several dialects or jargons, myself). Which is to say, I don't agree with Stavans, but I think he is citable and his views should be mentioned. Also, the views to the contrary (that it is a misconception to even count it as a dialect) are totally uncited. - Jmabel | Talk 17:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I've given several months for a response, gotten none, and will restore. - Jmabel | Talk 04:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've taken it out. Though I do believe that Ilán Stavans is a charlatan who only makes his claims for publicity, I will only justify the removal on these reasons: (a) he is neither a linguist nor a scholar of the Spanish language; (b) there is no support for his claims among such people; (c) his claims about "Spanglish" do not meet scholarly standards of evidence. It is not citable because his writings do not actually constitute information about the Spanish of people under a sizeable influence from English. 209.204.188.184 04:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He is Lewis-Sebring Professor in Latin American and Latino Culture at Amherst College. That would usually be considered enough of a credential to be citable on the topic. Considering that most of the article is completely uncited, it is remarkable that you are removing one of the few things with any citation at all. - Jmabel | Talk 23:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

No, that would usually not be considered enough credential. There is a sizeable academic literature on language contacts between Spanish and English, and it is part of an ever larger literature on langauge contact in general. Stavans fails to demonstrate any knowledge of any of it, no matter what title he may carry. (And be careful of getting bewitched by words: despite what his title might suggest, he's not an anthropologist, sociologist or social scientist of any sort. He's a literary theorist.)

He also fails to demonstrate knowledge of material taught in any Linguistics 101 course; for example, one of the first things taught in such a course is that, contrary to layperson opinion, a language is not a "bag of words," but rather, a system of grammatical rules. However, Stavans' book on "Spanglish" operates on a layperson's understding of what a language is, by dedicating roughly 2/3rds of itself to a vocabulary. Sacundim 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, I agree with Sacundim. Ilan Stavans is very controversial with his claims about Spanglish and he doesn't have the credentials to back any of them up. Any citations of him in this article should be limited to differing opinions on Spanglish as his outspoken views on it are very well known (probably what he's most known for). KingOfAfrica 04:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

The "Real Academia Española" external link doesn't seem to have anything to do with Spanglish per se. It doesn't point to a specific reference and I can't find any link to Spanglish. Is it just an advert? (admittedly my Spanish is non-existant so I might be missing something). --Nickj69 11:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You are. The RAE is the official governing body for the Spanish language; there is no such a thing for English, but a good analogue is the Académie française (BTW, the article at Real Academia Española would have told you as much). In any case, I doubt it's of much use here. Taragüí @ 12:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spanglish Babel Labels

It'd be really cool to see some Wikipedia:Babel labels for Spanglish. I for one know I speak Spanglish decently, and as this article suggests, I am obviously not the only one. --Syhususi 22:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tex-Mex as a local/regional synonym

I'd gladly take sources to back me up on this, but I can say as a Spanish and ESL teacher in Texas that I have run into a number of people here (generally but not always of Mexican origin) who don't call it Spanglish, but rather "Tex-Mex." It seemed worth noting in the interest of full coverage. Nonetheless, I know it's better to source it. Unfortunately, it's 5:00 am and I haven't slept yet. I'll live if it's deleted for this oversight, but I'd rather someone sourced it ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lawikitejana (talk • contribs) 2 August 2006.

[edit] Pochos

Somebody please correct the meaning of "pocho". It is not correct that that it is the way Mexicans call those who speak Spanglish. "Pochos" are the those Mexicans who are recent emigreés in the US and who refuse to speak Spanish because they want to be taken as "old" US citizens. Pedron 02:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Pocho" is a mexican who have been living in United States for a long time(or those who were born there but their parents are mexicans) and they tend to talk spanglish. (189.157.56.248 09:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Todo un suceso

"Todo un suceso" is not spanglish. Perhaps a spanglish-user could use it that way, but if you say "fue todo un suceso", the correct (literal) meaning is "it was a full event" or something to that effect.. for example it could be used saying that the opening of a new store in a city "didn't go by any means unnoticed". Opinions? --164.77.106.168 09:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments by 193.144.127.248

USA'S GOVERNMENT HAS FORBIDDEN AND PROSCRIBED THE USE AND THE USAGE OF SPANISH LANGUAGE SEVERAL TIMES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY BY MANY REPRESSIVE AND OPPRESSIVE LAWS.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.144.127.248 (talk • contribs) .

(same comment was inserted into article) That may well be true, but you would need to provide some references/citation for this statement and phrase it in a more neutral manner. -Kubigula (ave) 20:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USA's laws

Actually, USA's government has forbidden and proscribed free use and wide usage of Spanish language several times by repressive and oppressive laws, such as California's Proposal 227 "English Language in Public Schools" (the 2nd of June, 1998) that only enables primary education partly on Spanish language if children have yet learnt enought English before it. Another "Proposal 227-like" laws are rising in Arizona and Colorado. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.147.142.6 (talk • contribs) . (same comment also inserted into article)

Words like "repressive" and "oppressive" are your opinions and are not neutral - please see WP:NPOV. -Kubigula (ave) 20:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And the governments of individual states are not the U.S. government. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culear?

I was reading this article until I saw in the table of examples of Spanglish, the English of "to cool,, the spanish of "enfriar", but the spanglish of "culear". Culear is a vulgarism of have sex in spanish. So... it is needed to change to the correct spanglish synonim or to delete this from the table.

--201.226.12.75 01:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

True in Mexican Spanish (culear is having anal sex there), and almost everywhere Spanish is spoken... but Puerto Ricans use the phrase (regrettably, I should add, since most of my compatriots are not aware of the original meaning). That probably explains the entry. Demf 17:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pun presumably unintended, Demf? - Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] mombuey, bilto

How are "mombuey" and "el bilto tu spill" Spanglish? (The second one looks like a typing or editing error.)

It would be great to label the examples in that table with their regions. For instance, where does "watchman" become "guachiman"? In my part of New Mexico it's "guache". —JerryFriedman 21:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed ideas about Spanglish

Big cut from article:

Despite this, both are commonly labeled as "Spanglish."

Other common misconceptions about "Spanglish" are:

• That "Spanglish" is a "language," or even a dialect. It is rather a popular label for a collection of disparate language contact situations, where Spanish-speaking communities are influenced by English.
• That Spanglish is uniform; that is, that it is the same for all speakers in all places. In fact, Spanglish varies in many important ways:
  • Some people who are said to speak "Spanglish" live in a Spanish-speaking country (such as Puerto Rico, Honduras or Panama), while others live in the USA. Code mixing and code switching are far more common in the USA.
  • Those who live in the USA trace their ancestry to different countries, where different variants of Spanish are spoken. The "Spanglish" spoken by them reflects these differences; the "Spanglish" of a bilingual Mexican-American is not the same thing as that of a bilingual Puerto Rican.
  • Spanglish varies by region of the United States. This in fact correlates with ancestry; Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are concentrated in the Northeast, Mexicans in the Southwest, Cubans in the Southeast.
  • More importantly, the many varieties of "Spanglish" developed largely independently. In the case of a language like Spanish or English, there was a time and place where it originated, spread out to many countries and regions, and then diverged from the original form. In the case of "Spanglish," there isn't any such "original" version of it, from which its "dialects" sprang; each form represents a unique instance of English influencing the speech of Spanish speakers.

All of this is unsourced, and some of it is argumentative. Is an editor trying to overcome stereotypes here? --Uncle Ed 17:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

What they are presumably doing is arguing against Ilan Stavans, who claims that Spanglish is developing into a language. But most of these statements are accurate, and should be cited for and restored. - Jmabel | Talk 05:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)